Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#181

Post by realgeniushere » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 8:06 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #118

jongjong wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in those poorly governed countries don't always have a choice. You could be living in such a country, see everything that's wrong with your political system and yet be punished for it nevertheless. There is a flawed assumption which infers that because the majority of people in a specific country are idiots, everyone who lives in that country should be punished... Imagine how hard life is for intelligent peopl…

> so they should not be punished on that basis I keep seeing the word "punished" used as though there are some parents somwhere who are meteing out deliberate action against their children. It's not like that. It's just bad situations happening to adults and children alike. The only antidote we know of is having democracy and free(ish) markets to allow as much agency as possible to accumulate to individuals, rather t…

That is how many people see the world. Mankind is collectively some kind of God that is responsible for your individual plight.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#182

Post by realgeniushere » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 8:10 PM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #74

realgeniushere wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I agree it has to do with bad governance. But you deflect all blame away from the people in those poorly governed country, instead blaming wealthy people in other countries. I’ll say though, the worst thing the West has done to the third world is insist on democracy. Peasants don’t know what they need government to do, and the political classes in those countries don’t have the maturity to steer them.

People in those poorly governed countries don't always have a choice. You could be living in such a country, see everything that's wrong with your political system and yet be punished for it nevertheless. There is a flawed assumption which infers that because the majority of people in a specific country are idiots, everyone who lives in that country should be punished... Imagine how hard life is for intelligent peopl…

If you put your hand in the fire, no one has punished you with a burn.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#183

Post by aflag » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 8:33 PM UTC

yucky wrote: post #167

aflag wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I also think that's part of the system.

"the system" There are countless systems, the world over. At some point one must accept the data.

I was referring to the system in "you can’t possibly create a system"

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#184

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

serverholic wrote: post #124

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy to say from an easy chair in a rich country. But that paying poor countries to do work, that's their current route out of poor. To take that away over some social-action-theatre objection is just cruel and thoughtless. From one point of view.

This seems like an emotional reaction to a very valid point. If everyone on earth had fair wages things would be far more expensive. Part of what makes your phone affordable is cheap labor in terrible conditions. What happens when those countries start to be less poor? The answer is that the rich countries will find another group of poor people to make their stuff. This is likely why rich people, like Bill Gates, are…

When we find the magic wand to do that, I'm not sure I'd wave it but ok.

'Fair wages' is tossed around a lot. I'm not some money-grubbing oligarch but imagining you can control wages has a pretty bad track record. It's going to take more than talking about the end game, to come up with a game plan.

Anyway, I don't think I'm being any more emotional that the knock-off remark I responded to. If I came off as reactionary I apologize.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#185

Post by forgotmypw17 » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

I think that the "$2.15 a day" figure is very deceiving. A huge proportion of people around the world live largely without engaging with the currency system at all, so how much money they have is almost irrelevant to their life.

They have enough shelter and food and fulfillment from an established way of life that does not include money. So to say that they are in poverty because they don't use it shows at best an ignorance of the diversity of valid and functional lifestyles and cultures.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#186

Post by leshow » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 9:52 PM UTC

I thought this question was a joke based on the title. Our economic system itself creates inequality between nations. It's in the best interest of wealthy countries to keep developing countries poor so we can continue extractive processes for their resources. I wasn't aware the question had 'vexed economists for decades'.

You can say the same of inequality within a country. Wealth accumulates because we have an economic system where the few are able to extract value out of the many and are protected in their position both with prevailing ideology and state power.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#187

Post by Jensson » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

Koshkin wrote: post #60

docdeek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTA: In 2019 there were about 648 million people living in extreme poverty, subsisting on the equivalent of $2.15 per day or less. Those 648 million people made up 8.4% of world population — representing an improvement over 1990, when 35.9% of people lived on that little. This seems to be the inverse of a zero-sum game: the West might have got a lot richer, but hundreds of millions of people were lifeted out of extre…

> equivalent of $2.15 But what does this even mean? The buying power of the dollar (or its “equivalent”) where those people live can be much higher than in the US. (Unless you mean to compare with living on that much per day in the US.)

It means you have to spend close to your entire income to buy enough rice to not starve each day. Basically you are a subsistence farmer or equivalent, you don't have time or energy to do much else than work to not starve. You can't save up to buy a bike or a book, just work for food, all day entire life.

Add a bit more income and suddenly people can afford bikes and books if they save up, that is the lowest point necessary for people to start to pull themselves up and improve their society which is why it is so important to get as many people as possible to at least that level.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#188

Post by kodyo » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #165

zozbot234 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMF policies are arguably extremely toxic Correlation, not causation. The whole point of IMF intervention is to rescue countries that are already in the toilet, and need to consolidate foreign debt.

I wonder if a lot of those countries would do better to declare bankruptcy and not pay those debts.

If by country you mean the people who live there, yes.

If you mean whatever oligarchy is nominally in charge, well, the bankers can make sure they’re taken care of as long as the interest payments keep rolling in.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#189

Post by naikrovek » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

leshow wrote: post #186

I thought this question was a joke based on the title. Our economic system itself creates inequality between nations. It's in the best interest of wealthy countries to keep developing countries poor so we can continue extractive processes for their resources. I wasn't aware the question had 'vexed economists for decades'. You can say the same of inequality within a country. Wealth accumulates because we have an econo…

> It's in the best interest of wealthy countries to keep developing countries poor so we can continue extractive processes for their resources.

it really bothers me that people think this is an OK thing to do. We can choose to improve both the importing and exporting countries when these negotiations are set up, but we don't, because it's cheaper to turn people into slaves and drive them into the grave.

There are exactly zero people on this planet (or any other) who could convince me that collective altruism would not benefit everyone both immediately and in the long term, yet every single politician or statesman or business owner from any country seem to think that domination is the best option.

The amount of suffering that happens in this world because of money just stuns me every time I think about it. We are a garbage species, doomed to self-destruction, because of money and our apparently inextinguishable desire to have more than everyone else.

I will never understand the species or the society I was born into.

Re: Why Isn’t the Whole World Rich?

#190

Post by isitmadeofglass » Wed, Nov 23, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

jdthedisciple wrote: post #14

My personal (purposely incomplete!) answer is because the whole world doesn't deserve to be rich. Imagine this scenario to help understand why: Let's say the top richest people gave away so much money that every person on earth was a millionare. What would happen? People wouldn't change their spending and other habits, in fact they would buy more useless stuff. Prices would thus rise and rise until they matched the n…

> What would happen?

You are completely out of touch with the reality that the majority of the human population still faces. What would realistically happen was that people would buy washing machines and have more time to read books with their children.