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Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

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Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#21

Post by mlyle »

StevePerkins wrote: post #20
dymk wrote: post #8

I don’t understand how this language is planning on ever seeing adoption when it’s been restricted from open use since it’s inception. Seems like vaporware.

Over the past decade, I watched HN's and Reddit's hype waves cycle through server-side JavaScript, Golang, Haskell, and now Rust. With plenty of secondary favorites in the mix like Julia, Nim, Zig, etc. A lot of these things do find some modest niche to survive in. But none really take over the world as originally forecast by the hype wave. Ultimately, you either enjoy tinkering with programming languages for persona…

I'm starting to actually believe that Rust will eat C's lunch for systems programming.

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#22

Post by Cyberdog »

p0nce wrote: post #15
diimdeep wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://github.com/Jai-Community/Jai-Community-Library/wiki/... and https://github.com/Ivo-Balbaert/The_Way_to_Jai

> Supports x86 architecture only No native macOS then? > No virtual functions > Jai is less dogmatic okay

> No native macOS then?

Or Pi, or iOS, or practically all Android hardware… Kind of a non-starter IMO. Maybe this was marginally acceptable when the language started in '14 but it becomes less so every year.

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#24

Post by hbn »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #17

I'd love to see more about Jai. I don't understand why they are not working in the open, this is a tool, not a game, input for a large community is extremely valuable. But as brilliant as Jon Blow is, he is at least equally as stubborn. Fast compilation and nice, easy to read syntax with good default is exactly what I am looking for. I can understand the hype about metaprogramming, and its potential usefulness, but I…

I don't see why a language can't be one guy's passion project. Even if he releases it and it turns out he's the only person that likes it, so what? It's not like he's had millions in VC or government investment dumped into it or something. He's got some ideas and he's implementing them. I'm interested to see how it turns out.

Golang has had success and was primarily made in private by 3 guys and hasn't strayed too far from the original founding principles they came up with.

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#25

Post by mhh__ »

Xorlev wrote: post #18
gavinray wrote: post #4

It's worth mentioning that DMD is a reference compiler and not meant as a production tool. DMD is for fast compile time during dev cycles and testing new language features early. You've got the LLVM and GCC compilers for production. The problem with lack of debug info on Windows in D is solved by using LDC with LLDB/GDB to debug You can also ask the compiler to emit CodeView debugging info if you want to stick with M…

The author's chief complaint appears to be that dmd produces incorrect debug info on Windows, something I'd expect a reference compiler to do. A reference compiler doesn't have to be fast, but it does need to be correct.

Debug info is one of the backend things that does get priority with dmd. It has gotten some performance increases in recent years but these are mostly just a nicety.

Personally I have fixed some debug info generation problems so it is being worked on.

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#26

Post by Kukumber »

dmitriid wrote: post #5
chromatin wrote: post #3

I find the "slow compile time" complaint of D interesting; overall I find ldc2 to be one of the faster compilers out there. I suppose the combination of features and metaprogramming used by the author is responsible for the 3-minute compile times in debug mode. While jai is evidently expected to be substantially faster (author estimates 5 sec for this codebase???), other choices like Rust would be far, far slower tha…

> author estimates 5 sec for this codebase??? This expectation comes from jai compile times for the game Jonathan Blow is developing: https://www.twitch.tv/j_blow It takes about 2.5 seconds to compile and link over 168k lines of code in debug mode. See e.g. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1659970118 at around 30 seconds in

My game+engine wich is composed of 37k lines of D + 22k of C code (with D's ImportC), fully recompiles in 1.2 seconds with DMD

https://bpa.st/raw/WCVQ

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#27

Post by pjmlp »

mlyle wrote: post #21
StevePerkins wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the past decade, I watched HN's and Reddit's hype waves cycle through server-side JavaScript, Golang, Haskell, and now Rust. With plenty of secondary favorites in the mix like Julia, Nim, Zig, etc. A lot of these things do find some modest niche to survive in. But none really take over the world as originally forecast by the hype wave. Ultimately, you either enjoy tinkering with programming languages for persona…

I'm starting to actually believe that Rust will eat C's lunch for systems programming.

Lets see if it has better luck than C++ on domains that don't care about anything beyond C89, and compiler extensions.

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#28

Post by typon »

dymk wrote: post #8

I don’t understand how this language is planning on ever seeing adoption when it’s been restricted from open use since it’s inception. Seems like vaporware.

Design by committee vs. design by singular vision is an age old debate. We have plenty of the former, why not give the latter a try? There are plenty of good languages out there already to use, why does this language have to aim for wide adoption?

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#29

Post by zppln »

mlyle wrote: post #21
StevePerkins wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the past decade, I watched HN's and Reddit's hype waves cycle through server-side JavaScript, Golang, Haskell, and now Rust. With plenty of secondary favorites in the mix like Julia, Nim, Zig, etc. A lot of these things do find some modest niche to survive in. But none really take over the world as originally forecast by the hype wave. Ultimately, you either enjoy tinkering with programming languages for persona…

I'm starting to actually believe that Rust will eat C's lunch for systems programming.

People have been believing that for close to a decade now.

Re: Porting 58k lines of D and C++ to Jai

#30

Post by mlyle »

zppln wrote: post #29
mlyle wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to actually believe that Rust will eat C's lunch for systems programming.

People have been believing that for close to a decade now.

Yup, and it keeps steadily winning a small stream of converts and additional projects from C.

So I didn't believe it before, but it's starting to seem more plausible.

Of course, it'll take a very long time. There's a lot of C code out there. :D

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