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Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

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Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#71

Post by actionfromafar »

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #55

The ancient japanese governments restricted the peasants from destroying the allmende. No hunting with weapons, only traps. No chopping down trees. Its the only way a society on a island with limitations can thrive. This is a hack to circumvent the no lumbering rule. As far as im aware, similar rules never were applied in europe, just all things chopped down, and then some state forrests and macchia.

Oak forrests were very controlled in many European countries, for national security reasons. (Needed to make war ships.)

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#72

Post by RugnirViking »

esperent wrote: post #10

How much timber can be made this way (including similar methods like coppicing)? Is it enough to contribute a noticeable amount to the modern timber industry? Or is it more of a "huh that's cool" conversation topic?

its more useful for specific kinds of timber. If you want giant planks for building houses with, not that useful. We coppiced wood so it would grow a convenient size for chopping into firewood. Another large benefit is they tend to grow faily tall and straight, so are useful for things like stakes for fence posts.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#73

Post by duped »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #50
rob74 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This technique doesn't really offer a solution: as a rule, the harder and better quality the wood, the slower it grows, so the possibility to supply more when demand is high is limited, which makes the wood more expensive, so the temptation of "poaching" it is greater.

Trees don't move; it's perfectly possible to guard them from poachers.

With what army? The customs agents get bribed to stamp the lumber with official seals and it is sold to exporters with official documents so it can be shipped with plausible deniability. There's no incentive nor will to protect those trees.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#74

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

tpm wrote: post #70
qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #55

The ancient japanese governments restricted the peasants from destroying the allmende. No hunting with weapons, only traps. No chopping down trees. Its the only way a society on a island with limitations can thrive. This is a hack to circumvent the no lumbering rule. As far as im aware, similar rules never were applied in europe, just all things chopped down, and then some state forrests and macchia.

Certainly no hunting with weapons (no anything with weapons really) did apply in feudal Europe; the nobles were allowed to carry and use a weapon while the peasants were not. As for the trees, that was managed by the feudal owner of the land. Usually some forests were cut down early (between ca. 500-1300 AD) where arable land was under them, the rest was managed and used for construction and heating/cooking. Later ma…

Thats medieval northern europe, aka france, germany, england. The rest, the forrest was basically used up permanently during roman times.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macchie

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#75

Post by Obsnold »

creakingstairs wrote: post #51
Obsnold wrote: post #9

Does the Japanese government pay for or in some way support articles like this? Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing is in the UK? Articles like this about Japan make me feel a bit weird but I kind of wish we were better at fetishising our own produce and practices like we do with the Japanese.

> Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing is in the UK? Not quite but there is a fair bit of interest in UK culture to a point where there are “England fairs” in department stores and malls time to time. That being said I’m also kinda sick of people using Japanese words instead of direct translation for some reason. Kaizen and Ikigai comes to mind.

I’d love to see some more information about these fairs if you have a link.

My wife likes watching a lot of British YouTubers in Japan and it’s made me want to see more about how the Japanese view British culture.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#76

Post by creakingstairs »

b800h wrote: post #69
creakingstairs wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing is in the UK? Not quite but there is a fair bit of interest in UK culture to a point where there are “England fairs” in department stores and malls time to time. That being said I’m also kinda sick of people using Japanese words instead of direct translation for some reason. Kaizen and Ikigai comes to mind.

> Kaizen and Ikigai comes to mind. I can understand that though - without the translation, the terms become more specific in English usage. Take Kaizen, or Continuous Improvement. Specifically using the Japanese term shows what sort of continuous improvement you're doing. I notice, however, that it's also apparently a trademark....

> Specifically using the Japanese term shows what sort of continuous improvement you're doing.

Yeah but I find it weird that the meaning of kaizen is now different in that specific lean or whatever context when kaizen just means improvement in Japanese.

Come to think of it, There are many English words that Japanese people use that now mean something different, so I guess it’s just how things are :p

I think I’m just annoyed at these types of articles that puts Japanese words everywhere they can.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#77

Post by creakingstairs »

Obsnold wrote: post #75
creakingstairs wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do people in Japan get articles about how amazing coppicing is in the UK? Not quite but there is a fair bit of interest in UK culture to a point where there are “England fairs” in department stores and malls time to time. That being said I’m also kinda sick of people using Japanese words instead of direct translation for some reason. Kaizen and Ikigai comes to mind.

I’d love to see some more information about these fairs if you have a link. My wife likes watching a lot of British YouTubers in Japan and it’s made me want to see more about how the Japanese view British culture.

I’ve just googled the department store near me and looks like they had a “Great British fair” last year.

https://www.ukft.org/hankyu-great-british-fair-2021/

Another fair ran by department store this year:

https://www.mistore.jp/shopping/event/nihombashi_e/british_5...

I’ve never been to one so maybe looking up Japanese YouTubers might be your best shot for this topic.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#78

Post by BucketsMcG »

ggm wrote: post #20

Coppicing, Hedge laying, Bocage, drystone walling, wattle-and-daub are all domestic comparable ancient crafts of Europe. The point being that probably only drystone walling is valued in a way comparable to the Japanese version of Coppicing, which really has been transformed into an artform. European coppices are cut close to the rootstock and cut down far younger for use as poles, for wood turning, for hedge laying.…

After the Windsor Castle fire of 1992, they rebuilt the wooden roof of St. George's Hall without using a single nail, screw or drop of glue. They had a hard time finding people with the skills and knowledge to do it, as it's pretty much a dead art now.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#79

Post by ArcMex »

brigandish wrote: post #62
ggm wrote: post #20

Coppicing, Hedge laying, Bocage, drystone walling, wattle-and-daub are all domestic comparable ancient crafts of Europe. The point being that probably only drystone walling is valued in a way comparable to the Japanese version of Coppicing, which really has been transformed into an artform. European coppices are cut close to the rootstock and cut down far younger for use as poles, for wood turning, for hedge laying.…

It’s worth remembering that adoption is much different to how we’d conceive of it in Europe. If a business wasn’t going to be continued by the offspring then a new business owner could be adopted, as an adult. That’s why there seems to be so many Japanese concerns with incredibly long lineage, but like so much else in Japan to a westerner’s eyes, it’s appearance only. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19505088

This was the first time reading about this, thanks for sharing. It's an alien concept to me so it was a fascinating read.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#80

Post by xg15 »

defrost wrote: post #34
xg15 wrote: post #22

> The other reason the technique was developed was fashion. In the 14th century, a linear, stylized form of architecture known as sukiya-zukuri was extremely popular I'm also fascinated by how Japan apparently had it's own Bauhaus period, some 600 years before the west did.

It resurfaced again in 1998 [1] [1] https://www.discogs.com/release/1251099-Various-Satori-A-Tri...

Oh, that's cool!

I also found this bit [1]. So there really seems to be a connection between Sukiya-zukuri and Bauhaus:

> In 1954 Walter Gropius, founder of the Bauhaus visited Katsura Detached Palace and was so struck by it that in 1960 he co-authored Katsura: Tradition and Creation Japanese Architecture with Kenzo Tange.

(Though the book quote in the article seems to be about Zen gardens, which reads to me as maximally un-Bauhaus-like, so not sure if the style really was a direct inspiration for Bauhaus.)

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukiya-zukuri#Influence

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