Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

practical.engineering

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 310 posts

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#21

Post by gjsman-1000 »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #17

A lot of old Cold War preparatory war game scenarios start with EMPs blanketing the continental US. It only takes a few (like 1) nuclear weapon detonations in thin atmosphere (a few dozen km up) where the primary heat transfer mechanism is radiative (vs. convective, conductive) to cause enough EMP to take out pretty much the entire continental US grid. The military is fully hardened against EMP. Civilian infrastructu…

But is the military hardened against deserters, starving soldiers, starving military families, and so forth caused by civilian infrastructure collapse? I doubt it. If you can’t feed or heat/cool people, alliances quickly change - especially if you have no way of tracking who becomes AWOL.

As far as I know, military bases don’t have their own nuclear reactors or coal plants.

EDIT: Apparently the DoD requires diesel backup with enough fuel to last… “one to two weeks.” Meh… if I’m an EMP-empowered nation who hates the US, the grid looks tempting… sure, they can counterattack, but if you make investigating difficult and spread enough pandemonium… all you need to do is keep the government haphazardly distracted and confused for two weeks and you win…

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#22

Post by kfarr »

vasco wrote: post #18
tevon wrote: post #4

I'd be curious if it would be better to be in the city or the country. My hunch is that the city requires more "inputs" to stay survivable (fewer food/water stockpiles available), dependant on inputs. However cities would also be the focus for recovery efforts and disaster relief. On the flip side, the country has a greater store of natural resources per-capita (water, likely food, heat sources), however would be dep…

In the country it's also easier to be raided by people who know or suspect you have food and water. One house with nothing around it for miles vs an apartment in a huge building, is basically hiding in a crowd.

Yeah rural folk may last longer then city folk in the short term but then consolidation comes and there are very few winners

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#24

Post by vasco »

School-Cotton wrote: post #9
groffee wrote: post #6

I think everyone should turn off their power for a couple of hours (when convenient) just to see if and how well they'd manage. Because it's so easy to become reliant on something without realizing that it could go. Powers gone off? Guess I'll put the kettle on and make some tea while I wait - no power. It's got a bit dark - put the light on. Listen to spotify? No songs downloaded and no data etc etc. And that's not…

Luckily, if you have a gas stove, you can still heat up water for tea at least :)

Depends if the gas is from a canister in your house or if you're relying on the gas grid which can also fail during a prolonged widespread power outage.

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#25

Post by modoc »

tevon wrote: post #4

I'd be curious if it would be better to be in the city or the country. My hunch is that the city requires more "inputs" to stay survivable (fewer food/water stockpiles available), dependant on inputs. However cities would also be the focus for recovery efforts and disaster relief. On the flip side, the country has a greater store of natural resources per-capita (water, likely food, heat sources), however would be dep…

IMHO it's better in the country. We have a backup generator setup that will run everything for a month or so 24x7 or much longer if we only run it a few hours a day. Well water. Propane heat. Deep freezer in the garage full of food. Fully stocked pantry. Our neighbors all have similar setups and we're all very supportive of one another. Our neighbors have large gardens, flocks of sheep, herds of cattle, chickens, etc....

People living in the country are both more used to being self reliant, AND more willing to to help our neighbors (in part because out here emergencies can easily become life or death).

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#26

Post by aliqot »

vasco wrote: post #18
tevon wrote: post #4

I'd be curious if it would be better to be in the city or the country. My hunch is that the city requires more "inputs" to stay survivable (fewer food/water stockpiles available), dependant on inputs. However cities would also be the focus for recovery efforts and disaster relief. On the flip side, the country has a greater store of natural resources per-capita (water, likely food, heat sources), however would be dep…

In the country it's also easier to be raided by people who know or suspect you have food and water. One house with nothing around it for miles vs an apartment in a huge building, is basically hiding in a crowd.

Careful, it rains lead in the fields.

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#27

Post by Teknoman117 »

School-Cotton wrote: post #9
groffee wrote: post #6

I think everyone should turn off their power for a couple of hours (when convenient) just to see if and how well they'd manage. Because it's so easy to become reliant on something without realizing that it could go. Powers gone off? Guess I'll put the kettle on and make some tea while I wait - no power. It's got a bit dark - put the light on. Listen to spotify? No songs downloaded and no data etc etc. And that's not…

Luckily, if you have a gas stove, you can still heat up water for tea at least :)

So long as you have some lighters, matches, or a mechanical sparker because the built-in ignitors won't work without power.

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#28

Post by acidburnNSA »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #21
acidburnNSA wrote: post #17

A lot of old Cold War preparatory war game scenarios start with EMPs blanketing the continental US. It only takes a few (like 1) nuclear weapon detonations in thin atmosphere (a few dozen km up) where the primary heat transfer mechanism is radiative (vs. convective, conductive) to cause enough EMP to take out pretty much the entire continental US grid. The military is fully hardened against EMP. Civilian infrastructu…

But is the military hardened against deserters, starving soldiers, starving military families, and so forth caused by civilian infrastructure collapse? I doubt it. If you can’t feed or heat/cool people, alliances quickly change - especially if you have no way of tracking who becomes AWOL. As far as I know, military bases don’t have their own nuclear reactors or coal plants. EDIT: Apparently the DoD requires diesel ba…

> As far as I know, military bases don’t have their own nuclear reactors or coal plants.

Well the nuclear-powered submarines and aircraft carriers have power plants, and a few military bases used to be powered with nuclear (Camp Century, Ft. Greenly, McMurdo Station). But your point is reasonable. We'd be able to counterattack militarily, but it still would not be a happy day, nor a lasting integrity.

Re: How long would society last during a total grid collapse?

#30

Post by micro_cam »

Growing in the 80s up on the rural olympic peninsula the power routinely went off for a couple of weeks after windstorms. Even still it will be off for a few days every year. There are just a lot of power lines and a lot of trees and they have to check the whole system before it turns back on though they usually get it on for the schools and grocery stores pretty quick.

Everyone has a wood or propane heat source. We kept a non cordless land line, it worked fine with out power and i guess the phone lines are lower on the poles and not high voltage so it isn't a big issue if one is on the ground.

One year we had to cook a turkey on top of a wood stove.

Post reply on HN