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Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

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Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#41

Post by stareatgoats »

clarionbell wrote: post #40
stareatgoats wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never cease to marvel at how ancient cultures are still leaving their mark on us. My own favorite is how the cult of Isis morphed into the cult of the virgin Mary [0], and that the ancient Egyptian tradition (think ~4000+ years ago) of carrying statues of gods around on floats is still very much alive in most (all?) predominantly catholic countries. [0] https://thedailybeagle.net/2013/04/05/373/

The thing with Isis is a rather fringe theory though. The cults don't really overlap, and iconography is only superficially similar. Both are mothers of important figures ... and that's where the similarities come from. Same with the floats. How else would you carry statues around? In general terms, if you look long enough into enough cultures, you start seeing patterns everywhere. But that doesn't necessarily mean t…

Many scholars believe there is at least a link, that's not fringe at all. But I agree that seeing patterns has always been a judgement call with a lot of biases playing into it, and different people with different backgrounds make different calls on the extent of such connections and influences.

The sum of all judgement calls in this case is however tainted by vehement opposition to the notion from devout Catholics (or even culturally loyal Catholics), who naturally can not bear to think that the Virgin Mary is connected to heathen gods whatsoever. So there is that.

From my point of view it is only natural that iconography and traditions are transferred from one religion to another as the different geographic regions historically have moved from one religion to another. Many times such transferal has even been a conscious tactic as a way of increasing the acceptance for the new beliefs.

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#42

Post by stareatgoats »

stareatgoats wrote: post #41
clarionbell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with Isis is a rather fringe theory though. The cults don't really overlap, and iconography is only superficially similar. Both are mothers of important figures ... and that's where the similarities come from. Same with the floats. How else would you carry statues around? In general terms, if you look long enough into enough cultures, you start seeing patterns everywhere. But that doesn't necessarily mean t…

Many scholars believe there is at least a link, that's not fringe at all. But I agree that seeing patterns has always been a judgement call with a lot of biases playing into it, and different people with different backgrounds make different calls on the extent of such connections and influences. The sum of all judgement calls in this case is however tainted by vehement opposition to the notion from devout Catholics (…

PS: > How else would you carry statues around?

Many (most?) cultures that are not connected to the Mediterranean traditions don't carry statues of gods around at all.

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#44

Post by eternalban »

clarionbell wrote: post #40
stareatgoats wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never cease to marvel at how ancient cultures are still leaving their mark on us. My own favorite is how the cult of Isis morphed into the cult of the virgin Mary [0], and that the ancient Egyptian tradition (think ~4000+ years ago) of carrying statues of gods around on floats is still very much alive in most (all?) predominantly catholic countries. [0] https://thedailybeagle.net/2013/04/05/373/

The thing with Isis is a rather fringe theory though. The cults don't really overlap, and iconography is only superficially similar. Both are mothers of important figures ... and that's where the similarities come from. Same with the floats. How else would you carry statues around? In general terms, if you look long enough into enough cultures, you start seeing patterns everywhere. But that doesn't necessarily mean t…

> Both are mothers of important figures ... and that's where the similarities come from.

But not where they end.

Using a Jungian (or gnostic/mystic) analytical framework, Isis and Mary represent the 'pure ground of emergence', and their son, 'the redeemer/the chosen'. This then is an inherent 'constellation' of human 'collective unconscious' that cyclically re-emerges as epochs change, taking on the garb reflecting the new cultural matrix.

The mystic/spiritual idea expressed is this: by purifying one's mind (Mary the chaste) there emerges a new center of conscious mind (the Son) who is 'guided and chosen' by God (i.e the Universal Mind). This 'son' is "persecuted" and "killed" but resurrects (Jesus and Osiris).

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#45

Post by ss108 »

Apocryphon wrote: post #38
thaumasiotes wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While it is not incorrect to refer to the people as the Spanish, the proper demonym is Spaniard. But people often use the former to refer to the people/nationality anyway. Well, as you note, referring to the people of Spain in general as "the Spanish" is correct. This is an example of a fairly common construction in English: we equally refer to the French, the rich, the wealthy, the poor, the uneducated, the needy.…

I am willing to concede that I might be overthinking situations where "Spaniards" should be used instead of "the Spanish." Perhaps I was premature in citing a half-remembered verbal tic without having an actual example handy. But there is neither need to be presumptuous nor offensive, nor officious, in your attempts to grasp at my meaning. Amusingly enough, in the process of trying to find an erroneous misuse of the…

My assumption from your initial comment was also that you were not a native English speaker.

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#46

Post by [deleted] »

ss108 wrote: post #45
Apocryphon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to concede that I might be overthinking situations where "Spaniards" should be used instead of "the Spanish." Perhaps I was premature in citing a half-remembered verbal tic without having an actual example handy. But there is neither need to be presumptuous nor offensive, nor officious, in your attempts to grasp at my meaning. Amusingly enough, in the process of trying to find an erroneous misuse of the…

My assumption from your initial comment was also that you were not a native English speaker.

[deleted]

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#47

Post by Apocryphon »

ss108 wrote: post #45
Apocryphon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to concede that I might be overthinking situations where "Spaniards" should be used instead of "the Spanish." Perhaps I was premature in citing a half-remembered verbal tic without having an actual example handy. But there is neither need to be presumptuous nor offensive, nor officious, in your attempts to grasp at my meaning. Amusingly enough, in the process of trying to find an erroneous misuse of the…

My assumption from your initial comment was also that you were not a native English speaker.

'twas merely an act

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#48

Post by soledades »

crooked-v wrote: post #11
soledades wrote: post #3

> "attract subjects" that's an interesting little phraseology/unsubstantiated theory of state, especially coming from a science publication. typically, you "subject" subjects, hence the word. alternatively, if the redundancy bothers you, you can subject populaces instead.

The article is specifically about the leadership in question willingly attracting people to rule over rather than forcibly subjecting them to rulership.

yes, that is the premise, but the article specifically does not present any evidence of that being the case, just a bunch of weasel words.

"...aerial laser maps reported by Estrada-Belli and colleagues have revealed large, interconnected Maya cities now obscured by forests in other parts of northern Guatemala (SN: 9/27/18). The next step, Estrada-Belli says, is to assemble an aerial laser map of at least 100 square kilometers around Tamarindito to see if it was built in relative isolation."

if they don't even know whether it was built in isolation, how could they possibly be in a position to make these kind of conclusions about how it came about?

hence, "theory."

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#49

Post by soledades »

shadowofneptune wrote: post #13
soledades wrote: post #3

> "attract subjects" that's an interesting little phraseology/unsubstantiated theory of state, especially coming from a science publication. typically, you "subject" subjects, hence the word. alternatively, if the redundancy bothers you, you can subject populaces instead.

Terms which were coined in Norman feudalism will need some stretching to adapt to different cultures and political systems. The judges in the Book of Judges aren't anything like a judge in our sense, for example.

It's a pretty universal fact of history that civilizations come about through violence and subjugation, not by "the law of attraction," or whatever this article is proposing.

Re: Some Maya rulers may have taken generations to attract subjects

#50

Post by soledades »

jerry1979 wrote: post #12
soledades wrote: post #3

> "attract subjects" that's an interesting little phraseology/unsubstantiated theory of state, especially coming from a science publication. typically, you "subject" subjects, hence the word. alternatively, if the redundancy bothers you, you can subject populaces instead.

> typically, you "subject" subjects, hence the word. That seems like an appeal to linguistic authority. I have a hard time imagining building a hierarchy without an attraction phase. There are many real world examples: Jim Jones, Uber, the French Revolution, etc.

failure of imagination is not an argument either FWIW
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