Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go • Hacker News Board

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#111

Post by placatedmayhem » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

r0m4n0 wrote: post #104

cmeacham98 wrote: post #4

> I may be getting something wildly wrong here, but I am not sure I see the presence of this Apple ID proxy in Apple’s services logs to be a violation of either its own policies or users’ expectations for using internet services in general. I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" rather than a part of the device. The iOS App Store only comes on iOS devices, it comes on al…

I'm not sure what is being argued by the semantics here but the app store is an important aspect of the device but does that make it not an internet service? An app store by definition is almost a direct equivalent to a web browser. It's just a tool to allow you to move data/code onto your device to do more things. Without it, your device still has a functioning OS. Apple has coupled the functionality of app installa…

It's not just a web browser, though. It's the sole method to install software, most similar to a package manager on a desktop operating system. On your point, many package managers do have the ability to browse the remote index of the software they can install (e.g. `brew search [X]`, dnf search [X]`). However, the primary purpose of a package manager, including the App Store, is to install and manage software. This is a critical operating system function, made more critical on iOS by the fact that the App Store is the only way to get software.

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#112

Post by cmeacham98 » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

r0m4n0 wrote: post #104

cmeacham98 wrote: post #4

> I may be getting something wildly wrong here, but I am not sure I see the presence of this Apple ID proxy in Apple’s services logs to be a violation of either its own policies or users’ expectations for using internet services in general. I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as an "internet service" rather than a part of the device. The iOS App Store only comes on iOS devices, it comes on al…

I'm not sure what is being argued by the semantics here but the app store is an important aspect of the device but does that make it not an internet service? An app store by definition is almost a direct equivalent to a web browser. It's just a tool to allow you to move data/code onto your device to do more things. Without it, your device still has a functioning OS. Apple has coupled the functionality of app installa…

Let me repost what I wrote elsewhere in this thread:

The point is not that the App Store isn't an online service (although I would argue that it more "relies on" an online service), but that its role as part of the OS supersedes that.

I can't go back and edit my comment now, but to make it more clear I probably should have written something like:

> I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as ___only___ an "internet service" rather than...

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#113

Post by Ensorceled » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:23 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #78

Ensorceled wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this can be explained by simple denial; Apple's reality distortion field, or some variation on "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Maybe not salary, but a foundational world view, much like religion. My personal view, which I presume is the same as many others, is that these things keep being a "if there is smoke, there's fire" situati…

>"if there is smoke, there's fire I want you to take that sentence and throw it away and instead have a mental paradigm shift. "Where there is fuel there is risk". One day when you have a lot of time look up the USCSB (United States Chemical Saftey Board) channel on youtube and look at the decade of very well done videos on deadly industrial disasters they have done. People will ignore risk for years accepting the da…

> "Where there is fuel there is risk".

That's good point of view. I'm quite glad that the EU is finally tackling this stuff seriously and would LOVE to see strict regulations about what data you can track (as little as possible) AND what you can share (nothing at all, preferably).

Content based advertising should be good enough, if everyone has the same playing field.

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#114

Post by mcculley » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:25 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #92

Shoue wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, systems affect our behaviour. We created the system that is our current market economy, and we have the ability to construct new systems that encourage better behaviour. For example, studies show that cooperatively ran businesses are more ethical and more stable: > [...] Additionally, "cooperative banks build up counter-cyclical buffers that function well in case of a crisis," and are less likely to lead…

> Public trust in credit unions stands at 60%, compared to 30% for big banks and small businesses are five times less likely to be dissatisfied with a credit union than with a big bank All organizations seek to accrue power and revenue - even “non profits”. I saw it from one of the local credit unions I worked at in college… 1. First it was a credit union for a few large companies 2. Then it redid its charter to beco…

Indeed. This is why some (relatively few) organizations are designed to limit growth. Not all credit unions have the problem of growing to serve other customers.

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#115

Post by gunapologist99 » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

Apple’s analytics data include an ID called “dsId”. We were able to verify that “dsId” is the “Directory Services Identifier”, an ID that uniquely identifies an iCloud account. Meaning, Apple’s analytics can personally identify you. Apple states in their Device Analytics & Privacy statement that the collected data does not identify you personally.

Even if legal, this is obviously a very bad look for a company that claimed they were all about privacy and took actions against competitors to protect users' privacy.

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#116

Post by gunapologist99 » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

talkingtab wrote: post #106

Leaving behind the discussion of whether this is a problem, it is a problem for me. I paid Apple for a device. I don't want Apple to use devices to track me or target me with ads or anything else. That is my personal take. But what can you do assuming that you want or need a phone? Android is no better. Class action lawsuits enrich law firms and get users a gift card for $0.20 (sarcasm). I just wonder what would happ…

> But what can you do assuming that you want or need a phone? Android is no better.

GrapheneOS, Calyx, and LineageOS would like a word..

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#117

Post by r0m4n0 » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

cmeacham98 wrote: post #112

r0m4n0 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what is being argued by the semantics here but the app store is an important aspect of the device but does that make it not an internet service? An app store by definition is almost a direct equivalent to a web browser. It's just a tool to allow you to move data/code onto your device to do more things. Without it, your device still has a functioning OS. Apple has coupled the functionality of app installa…

Let me repost what I wrote elsewhere in this thread: The point is not that the App Store isn't an online service (although I would argue that it more "relies on" an online service), but that its role as part of the OS supersedes that. I can't go back and edit my comment now, but to make it more clear I probably should have written something like: > I strongly disagree that the iOS App Store should be treated as ___on…

Ok yea agreed. I think it’s more than one thing, including an internet service

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#118

Post by _heimdall » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #12

newaccount74 wrote: post #7

Can someone explain why the App Store doesn't show the "Ask App Not To Track" dialog? Why do 3rd party apps have to ask for permission to track, but Apple's apps do not?

Tracking is about following breadcrumbs across activity in third party apps. So if the Facebook app uses identifiers in common with Uber, and can see what you do in Uber or something, that’s tracking. Recording what you do in a single app, or apps from one company that isn’t strictly necessary for providing the service is telemetry. Apple doesn’t share user data and identifiers with third parties except as necessary…

Agreed that is the technical distinction made today, but for an end user that really is splitting hairs.

When Apple is offering first-party services that compete with Netflix, Spotify, etc. my privacy concern is that someone is tracking and aggregating data on what I watch and listen to.

As a user I don't really care if that's two separate corporations sharing unique identifiers or two departments in the same umbrella corporation, it's still a privacy concern.

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#119

Post by snovv_crash » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #54

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this can be explained by simple denial; Apple's reality distortion field, or some variation on "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Maybe not salary, but a foundational world view, much like religion. I mean, people on HN will argue that it's wrong to block ads, a point of view that only makes sense to me through the lens of the above quo…

> I think this can be explained by simple denial; Apple's reality distortion field, or some variation on "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Maybe not salary, but a foundational world view, much like religion. My personal view, which I presume is the same as many others, is that these things keep being a "if there is smoke, there's fire" situati…

Out of curiosity, what does Google do with your data which would be considered bad, ie. beyond the basics of ad targeting and improving their internal services?

Re: Oh, the Places Your Apple ID Will Go

#120

Post by JamesSwift » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

trollied wrote: post #2

Good to see somebody talking sense. Lots of journalists jumped on this, framing Apple as evil. At a high level, the whole thing is no different to a website using a cookie to keep you logged in.

This seems pretty different. This is a _cross channel correlated ID_. In other words, this is able to (and presumably used for) tying the user record together between multiple, separate applications. This isn't a "generated ID that only identifies you within the current application vertical". Those IDs would not be able to cross-correlate between other app properties if leaked. The IDs as described in the article would be able to be used to build out a more rich "permanent record" on the given user as more information flows in from various apps.