We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult • Hacker News Board

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#301

Post by halpmeh » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 2:50 AM UTC

geye1234 wrote: post #277

halpmeh wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

As a sibling poster says, why don't you ask them? I converted to Catholicism after weighing it up against pantheism, atheism, and other forms of Christianity. I think I have very good reasons for believing in God's existence with a very high degree of confidence (not just "look what I experienced" reasons, but philosophical arguments that appear sound to me). And I teach my kids about it because if I let them "make u…

This seems like mental gymnastics to justify joining a cult. You realize that your kids only know what you tell them. It takes a very long time for them to even understand analytic thought. What you’ve said is essentially “I chose to join a cult and indoctrinate my kids from birth so they don’t believe anything else, even when presented a compelling reason to do so.”

If you really want them to make up their own mind, give them the tools to evaluate ideas, don’t stack the deck because you’re afraid they’ll come to a different conclusion than you. Of course you won’t do that because you believe in God, so you’re afraid that they won’t believe in God unless indoctrinated as a child. That’s what you meant by “if I let them "make up their own mind", they'll fall for whatever persuasive argument they first encounter.” Right? The alternative to believing in God is not believing. So you’re afraid they won’t believe in God if presented with a compelling argument unless they’ve already been indoctrinated.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#302

Post by halpmeh » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 2:54 AM UTC

compiler-guy wrote: post #250

halpmeh wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

People attend church for a wide variety of reasons and it’s good not to over simplify them. Plenty of people with widely varying amounts of belief still attend for a wide variety of reasons. Some attend to keep peace in their families. Or because it is a social group with which they have a long history. Or because the emotional support of a pastor helps them. Some attend because it would break their parent’s hearts i…

All the reasons you listed sound like a cult.

“I can’t leave the cult, my family will disown me.”

“I can’t leave the cult, everyone I know and care about is in the cult.”

“I can’t leave the cult. I need the leaders emotional support.”

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#303

Post by jondeval » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 4:02 AM UTC

alfor wrote: post #300

jondeval wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck to you. This is a great comment. > See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) This is tricky. You are sort of making an acknowledgement of the power of Christianity to shape culture without requiring a firm belief in its supernatural truth claims. I just don't think you can recover the one without the other. The fruits of a Christian culture were grown over many generations by people who…

I feel that I am on path of some sort, was raised Catholic (but we didn’t really believe: Québec, one on the most catholic place that become one of the most atheist in a very short time) I was mostly scientific atheist nihilist, searching for meaning. I discovered to my surprise the logic, usefulness and truth in our stories through Jordan Peterson biblical lectures. But now through the explanation of Jonathan Pageau…

I'm just an ordinary Catholic. My story isn't particularly exciting.

I understand the view you are articulating with the phrase 'reduction of truth'. I can't be 100% sure from such a short description but I think that view aligns closely to my own.

More and more I find my perspective tracking with these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAcZaBhEuE0

As you wrestle with the deeper questions about God and Christianity, you mine as well wrestle with the most well educated proponents of that view. The Dominican Friars who put those videos together certainly check that box.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#304

Post by kcplate » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 4:47 AM UTC

halpmeh wrote: post #302

compiler-guy wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People attend church for a wide variety of reasons and it’s good not to over simplify them. Plenty of people with widely varying amounts of belief still attend for a wide variety of reasons. Some attend to keep peace in their families. Or because it is a social group with which they have a long history. Or because the emotional support of a pastor helps them. Some attend because it would break their parent’s hearts i…

All the reasons you listed sound like a cult. “I can’t leave the cult, my family will disown me.” “I can’t leave the cult, everyone I know and care about is in the cult.” “I can’t leave the cult. I need the leaders emotional support.”

I think you are both broadening the definition to the same level as the original blog author and also narrowing what the commenter said to make any religious community a cult, I think that fails to consider hat the common understanding of what a cult is. So things like: “Keeping peace in the family” != “my family will disown me”. “I am part of a community” != “Everyone I know and are about is in a cult”. “My pastor provides me counseling” != “I need the leaders emotional support”

It

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#305

Post by dayjaby » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 5:22 AM UTC

IIAOPSW wrote: post #292

mostertoaster wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue with any definition and why people say “everything is a cult”, is because I read this list and it makes me feel like progressivism is a cult based on it. Though I’m sure a progressive would say Trumpism is a cult. LDS is accused of being a cult. But they’re generally nice neighbors. Is it still a cult if it gets big enough? Islam would’ve once been a cult as well as Christianity. At the very least i…

>Is it still a cult if it gets big enough? To draw an analogy, if a street gang gets big enough and controls enough territory, is it a government? The obvious follow up question is that if these phenomena only differ in size of membership, what makes one "legitimate" and the other not? Is there such a thing as a legitimate government and a legitimate religion, or are they all just another level of street gangs and cu…

Just curious: do you think that any government where the leader is not above the law is legitimate?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#306

Post by untangle » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 6:05 AM UTC

Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but "...sorry to inform you..." is just one post of many on the blog.

Those seeking more context should check out the home page and some of the other posts. Two items emerge quickly: the blogger left Utah several years ago and is now probably an atheist.

But the writing is great -- haunting and mysterious. Nice find.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#307

Post by ukj » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 9:51 AM UTC

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #255

ukj wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your unquestioned cultural norms and biases. Everything your parents, your family; your community and your society taught you. The heuristics that keep you navigating life without having to scrutinize every single choice from first principles.

> The heuristics that keep you navigating life without having to scrutinize every single choice from first principles. Thanks for these words. Scrutinizing every single choice from first principles is exactly what i promote and what i find people are deeply resistant to, yet i haven't had this description of what's happening until now.

It is an unrealistic and unwise expectation to live one’s life that way.

Decision fatigue will catch up with anyone who lives like that soon enough.

Time is a finite resource. Don’t waste it on perfectionism.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#308

Post by halpmeh » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 11:49 AM UTC

kcplate wrote: post #304

halpmeh wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the reasons you listed sound like a cult. “I can’t leave the cult, my family will disown me.” “I can’t leave the cult, everyone I know and care about is in the cult.” “I can’t leave the cult. I need the leaders emotional support.”

I think you are both broadening the definition to the same level as the original blog author and also narrowing what the commenter said to make any religious community a cult, I think that fails to consider hat the common understanding of what a cult is. So things like: “Keeping peace in the family” != “my family will disown me”. “I am part of a community” != “Everyone I know and are about is in a cult”. “My pastor p…

I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and its rituals, my emotional support comes from the religion. That’s cult-like.

I think the main reason we don’t considered religions a cult has nothing to do with the behavior or the participants or their reasons for attendance. We generally consider cults to be small, which is incongruous with mainstream religion.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#309

Post by IIAOPSW » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 12:56 PM UTC

dayjaby wrote: post #305

IIAOPSW wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is it still a cult if it gets big enough? To draw an analogy, if a street gang gets big enough and controls enough territory, is it a government? The obvious follow up question is that if these phenomena only differ in size of membership, what makes one "legitimate" and the other not? Is there such a thing as a legitimate government and a legitimate religion, or are they all just another level of street gangs and cu…

Just curious: do you think that any government where the leader is not above the law is legitimate?

Legitimacy is more often a spectrum than a binary thing. Rule of law, by which I mean the law itself is the ruler and not the person enforcing it, is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The essence of what we are calling legitimacy is that the government derives its authority from something other than physical force. In a situation like you described, where the ruler themselves isn't personally above the law, the law itself might still derive from "because some authority said so".

For example, you could have a case like China which up until recently had rulers that stepped down every 5 years. I'd call that a textbook example of the rulers themselves being subject to the rules, and indeed regular peaceful transfers of power is something rarely ever seen outside of Democracies. In spite of having some amount of rule of law, China doesn't quite match the way I've defined legitimacy, because the laws of China themselves are ultimately derived from "because the party said so". So the legitimacy of the laws rest on the legitimacy of the communist party. Where does that legitimacy come from? The short answer is "Chinese standard of living better keep trending upwards forever."

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#310

Post by compiler-guy » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 2:26 PM UTC

halpmeh wrote: post #308

kcplate wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are both broadening the definition to the same level as the original blog author and also narrowing what the commenter said to make any religious community a cult, I think that fails to consider hat the common understanding of what a cult is. So things like: “Keeping peace in the family” != “my family will disown me”. “I am part of a community” != “Everyone I know and are about is in a cult”. “My pastor p…

I disagree. I may have used hyperbole, but those were then reasons listed: my family wants me in the religion, my social graph is based around the religion and its rituals, my emotional support comes from the religion. That’s cult-like. I think the main reason we don’t considered religions a cult has nothing to do with the behavior or the participants or their reasons for attendance. We generally consider cults to be…

You missed “the donuts are good” reason.

And the detail about varying levels of belief.

Emotional support from a caring ear is hardly cult like. “I have friends there” is hardly cult like.

On the social graph side, say I used to be really into some charity work, say, like a homeless shelter. I sat on the board and volunteered there for years and years and met many people who became friends. Our kids grew up together and we went to their birthday parties and all that.

I have since become disenchanted with the way things are run—the new director and I don’t see eye to eye—plus I have found other ways to help out this demographic.

But I would probably still hang out there, or at least go to the big events, simply because I have friends there and people that I genuinely like.

I’m sorry, but that’s not culty.

Your hyperbole works well as a rhetorical strategy, but eliminates all the nuance I was trying to add. Just like as if I had said, “an occasional cookie doesn’t make one fat” and you had replied, “Chowing down on cookies and ice cream actually does make you fat”.

It might be true, but it is not responsive to the argument.

As I write this I’m en route to a family gathering that excites me not at all, but it will make certain members of my family happy. That’s not cult like, it’s making compromises to get along in the world.