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Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

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Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#171
I'll add little bit of context from Kindle Reader which was developed while I was at Amazon. Though I was in no way involved with it I frequently interacted with senior folks who were.

For first few years, Kindle Reader was a massive sink hole at multiple levels. There was this humongous R&D cost, hardware and software. On a recurring basis Amazon absorbed cellular data charges. Remember this was in early 2008 so cellular data charges were big and since this was the first couple of iterations of product the data sync protocol was yet to be optimised so data intensive. For example, the device would phone home every hour or so to fetch new book purchases and metadata such as bookmarks, last read pages etc., It also included a basic web browser. And finally, the unit economics of selling digital books were terrible. Because Amazon was trying to create a new habit they had to incentivise readers with discounts, even without discount they were losing about 4$/book sold.

So all in all this all seemed like a giant resource consuming operation with no hope of generating any profit. But boy did it succeed. Within about 4 years or so kindle books were outselling physical copies something like 3-1. And now I think it's not even worth comparing.

My suspicion is execs expected Alexa ecosystem to follow Kindle's trajectory of success which doesn't seem to have materialised.

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#172
post #138

Perhaps a silly question, but can somebody describe how they might lose $10 billion on Alexa in one year? I don't understand the math. That's enough to pay 33,000 employees $330k a year, or some recombination of such. I don't think the real numbers come even remotely close to that. So it presumably has to be hardware costs, but Alexa is software, and they have vertical integration of all servers which presumably woul…

Hardware is very expensive. Alexa dot is $14 on Amazon.com right now, i bet they are selling it at a loss for that price.

I bet that’s at cost tbh. You’d be surprised how cheap things have gotten. However, r&d and every single Alexa request costs money. So from day one, it’s losing money.

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've heard, AWS prices for large customers like Netflix are a lot lower than for Alexa or Amazon Retail. Netflix has the option to switch to GCP or Azure; Alexa doesn't so they don't get those discounts.

What does it mean for Alexa to "pay" for AWS though? Is it recorder as revenue somewhere or does it just get accounted for internally?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've heard, AWS prices for large customers like Netflix are a lot lower than for Alexa or Amazon Retail. Netflix has the option to switch to GCP or Azure; Alexa doesn't so they don't get those discounts.

What does it mean for Alexa to "pay" for AWS though? Is it recorder as revenue somewhere or does it just get accounted for internally?

Even if it's Amazon paying Amazon, there is an opportunity cost to using all those cloud resources. Every resource used internally is a resource not available for sale externally.

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#175
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying to do that, but as soon as i sort, there is a whole bunch of unrelated stuff for pages... How do you address that?

I suspect they do this on purpose to frustrate you into spending more.

Maybe, but it’s a legitimately hard problem. Sort by lowest price legitimately means show the lowest price item first, even if it’s less relevant.

Based on other search systems I have worked with, they probably have an initial fast filter that limits the items from the entire inventory to a loosely matching set (erring on the side of including irrelevant items). Then a more intelligent and expensive ranking system would be used to find the best items from that set (where “best” means a bunch of things including relevance and profitability). Selecting “price: low to high” probably bypasses the intelligent system, so you end up with crap at the top of the list.

The low-priced items could be doing some kind of SEO scam to get on the list, or it could be something innocent like a fuzzy match to text in the description (could be a dumb issue like tf-idf that randomly exceeds a threshold due to noise).

You could argue that if they don’t prioritize the investment to fix these issues, it’s in some sense intentional. Nobody sorts by low price, because it gives poor results, because they don’t bother fixing it, because it’s not a priority, because nobody sorts by low price…

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#176
If they're reportedly selling the devices at cost, how could they possibly be losing $10B on Alexa? That would imply $10B spent on Alexa R&D and non-manufacturing costs, which seems like .... a lot.

And if it's "server costs for processing requests", then how come Google / Apple aren't losing $Bs on their VA systems? (Also, if no one is using Alexa then request processing costs would be low; if everyone is using Alexa then it seems there would be some return in higher sales.)

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#177

I use my Alexa all the time, but 99% of it is: Alexa, time! Alexa, set an alarm for 5 minutes! Alexa how many minutes left? Alexa, turn off/on all the lights! That’s basically it. I wrote some apps for it a long time ago to do custom stuff like read me some Reddit pages, but the SDK changed or something and eventually they just died and it wasn’t obvious to me how to recreate it/not worth the effort. I really wish th…

People want voice control because they see it in movies and TV.

But what they forget that the only reason movies and TV have it in the first place is because that way the audience hears what the character wants!

It's not because it's actually a better interface - because it's not!

Same with glass interfaces with no buttons - they make them because they are cheaper, not because it's better. But they look really cool, so people start to think they are actually better.

I'm sure there are tons more examples of things people think are done because they are better, but are actually done to save money or for some unrelated reason.

Maybe shoelaces that are laced inside-out. In the box they want the ends to point inward, but when you wear them you are supposed to relace them so they end up pointing outward.

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Alexa for everything. - To ask for the weather, weather alerts, relative humidity, precipitation, wind speed - To ask about outdoor air quality, indoor air quality (requires air quality monitors) - As a baby monitor (crying detector routine) - To know when to empty the dehumidifier bucket (humidity > 60% routine) - To know when someone left the AC fan off (high CO2 routine) - To know when to open the window (hi…

so from the perspective of an executive trying to make money off it: utterly useless

Or they could just charge for costs + profit and let people decide if it’s worth the price. The SV business model is good for small companies to get rapid growth but after that it’s just bad economics

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#179

I use my Alexa all the time, but 99% of it is: Alexa, time! Alexa, set an alarm for 5 minutes! Alexa how many minutes left? Alexa, turn off/on all the lights! That’s basically it. I wrote some apps for it a long time ago to do custom stuff like read me some Reddit pages, but the SDK changed or something and eventually they just died and it wasn’t obvious to me how to recreate it/not worth the effort. I really wish th…

This has been my compliant with all of this voice control stuff. The dev teams are so damn focused on being able to answer some esoteric query that you're asking as joke, they forget that you only want to do like 5 basic things: * Set an alarm/reminder * Read then send a text message (while driving). It doesn't even have to be good. Just something that I can send while driving. * Maybe.....maybe ask for the weather.…

I wonder how many of those could be run device-local on 2-4 year old smartphone equivalent hardware (so, something you could build today and sell for <$300 as an Echo-equivalent) with some kind of trust-minimized cloud backend (or homekit, etc. integration for local device control).

Re: Amazon Alexa is on pace to lose $10B this year

#180

After timers, the #1 use of Alexa in my house: 'make a fart noise'. We've tried to use Alexa for some games, like Jeopardy or Whose Line Is It Anyway, but it always is an incredibly buggy experience. Even just simple multiple choice games should work perfectly, and yet, a lot of the time even basic answers don't register, and the games themselves crash. I've always wondered - stupid mobile games are dominating video…

This is the result of a propped up economy avoiding recessions at all cost. These large conglomerates are completely out of touch and money has been so cheap they were not really competing for or providing good services.
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