Is wine fake? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is wine fake?

#341

Post by School-Cotton » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 12:57 AM UTC

biztos wrote: post #338

School-Cotton wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US also has very high taxes on wine compared to the wine-producing countries of Europe (which AFAIK subsidize it). Similar to how a pack of cigarettes costs $15 in NYC and $6 in Raleigh, NC.

Interesting that it’s $6 there, when it can apparently be sold profitably for $1 elsewhere: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings...

Yep, the economic cost of tobacco has no reason to be higher than any other plant.

Even in Raleigh, there are taxes on tobacco.

Re: Is wine fake?

#342

Post by mauvehaus » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 12:58 AM UTC

docandrew wrote: post #273

mauvehaus wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually a fairy delicious way to enjoy cheap wine, and I dare say it compares favorably to some of the digestifs in the world.

Red wine with sparkling lemonade is a great summer drink, an easy alternative to sangria.

I am so looking forward to 6 months from now; thank you!

Re: Is wine fake?

#343

Post by NikolaNovak » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 12:58 AM UTC

dmix wrote: post #286

analog31 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have sometimes speculated that the purpose of the $50 bottles is to make you think that you're being sensible by buying a $20 bottle, when really the $10 bottle is just fine. A few people will certainly buy the $50 bottle, but the real money is in upsale at the lower end.

Reminds me of the loss leader strategy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader A retail shop will put TVs on sale for 50% off but only keep 5 in stock. They advertise it everywhere, 100 people show up looking for cheap TVs, find it's out-of-stock and buy one of the expensive ones that are only 5-10% off.

That sounds like bait and switch. Loss leader fwiw is a product that retailer intentionally and legitimately loses money on, in order to get you into the store where you'll buy other stuff.

20 years ago, Computers were perennially loss leaders at a best buy I worked at. We sold you $2000 computer at a small loss, hoping you'd buy printer paper and cartridges and cables and warsanty.printers are still notorious loss leaders of course.

Re: Is wine fake?

#344

Post by davidmurdoch » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:02 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #248

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #213

Two scientific points to bring up about this article: 1. When the author talks about Coke vs. Pepsi, he comes to the conclusion that the reason people prefer Pepsi in blind taste tests but Coke in unblinded ones is "Think of it as the brain combining two sources of input to make a final taste perception: the actual taste of the two sodas and a preconceived notion (probably based on great marketing) that Coke should t…

> so if you're just taking a few quick sips (as most taste tests are set up), you may prefer the sweeter taste of Pepsi because it stands out more, but if you're drinking a whole bunch, the sweeter taste of Pepsi can feel cloying. This is not about drinking or sipping though. This is about people prefer Pepsi in blind tests and Coke in unblinded tests. So this explanation would only make sense if the blind tests are…

I think you are saying the same thing the original comment was saying.

Re: Is wine fake?

#345

Post by wmil » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:02 AM UTC

nier wrote: post #128

wmil wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was of the opinion that generally speaking the quality of a typical wine increases monotonically with price up until around the $40 range with the big steps around the $5, $10, and $20 price points. I'm always amused when I hear this, because I live in Ontario. Our alcohol laws are set up to heavily favour local wines. Of course Ontario reds are consistently both more expensive and worse than foreign wines. High…

How does red wine from Ontario end up more expensive than the one from abroad when the laws are set up to favor the wine from Ontario?

Ontario retail alcohol sales are heavily regulated. The LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario) has exclusive rights to import wine and only sells that wine at its retail stores. They reserve a big section of their stores for Ontario wines.

Ontario wineries can get approval to open retail stores, but the product they sell can be at most a 50% foreign blend.

So you always have more retail locations and a wider selection with Ontario wines.

Re: Is wine fake?

#346

Post by chrisseaton » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:03 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #248

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #213

Two scientific points to bring up about this article: 1. When the author talks about Coke vs. Pepsi, he comes to the conclusion that the reason people prefer Pepsi in blind taste tests but Coke in unblinded ones is "Think of it as the brain combining two sources of input to make a final taste perception: the actual taste of the two sodas and a preconceived notion (probably based on great marketing) that Coke should t…

> so if you're just taking a few quick sips (as most taste tests are set up), you may prefer the sweeter taste of Pepsi because it stands out more, but if you're drinking a whole bunch, the sweeter taste of Pepsi can feel cloying. This is not about drinking or sipping though. This is about people prefer Pepsi in blind tests and Coke in unblinded tests. So this explanation would only make sense if the blind tests are…

> So this explanation would only make sense if the blind tests are also using sipping and the unblinded tests are using drinking.

Yeah that’s what they’re doing.

Re: Is wine fake?

#347

Post by technothrasher » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:03 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #258

antognini wrote: post #49

One of my professors in grad school was really into wine and every couple of years he would put on an after-hours wine tasting class for a semester. One of the points he made was that there are absolutely wines which are objectively better and worse and that experts can reliably tell them apart. He had met enough experts who could identify a vineyard and vintage blind to know there was something to it. But sitting on…

> the quality of a typical wine increases monotonically with price up until around the $40 range with the big steps around the $5, $10, and $20 price points. How does this jive with the studies showing that, if anything, regular people have a slight preference for cheaper wines?

I don't have much of a wine palate, but I do have a crazy obsession with chocolate. What I notice with the chocolate is that people tend to prefer the cheaper, usually milk, chocolate because they don't actually like intense chocolate flavors. The stuff added to supermarket grade chocolates tends to dull and blend the flavors, hiding what I think is crazy good complexity of flavors (raisin, cherry, tobacco, leather, of course cacao, and more) but what others describe as "bitter", "burned", or "tastes like dirt". I completely understand why people like the cheap chocolate, it tastes good and goes down smooth. But it just doesn't excite with complexity the way more specialty chocolate can. I've always wondered if maybe that's the same with expensive vs consumer wines, but in that instance I'm the one on the other side of the coin who likes the cheap stuff.

Re: Is wine fake?

#348

Post by olalonde » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

antognini wrote: post #49

One of my professors in grad school was really into wine and every couple of years he would put on an after-hours wine tasting class for a semester. One of the points he made was that there are absolutely wines which are objectively better and worse and that experts can reliably tell them apart. He had met enough experts who could identify a vineyard and vintage blind to know there was something to it. But sitting on…

> One of the points he made was that there are absolutely wines which are objectively better and worse and that experts can reliably tell them apart. He had met enough experts who could identify a vineyard and vintage blind to know there was something to it. But sitting on top of that there is a frothy market that is driven by fads, speculation, and hype.

Sounds like crypto.

Re: Is wine fake?

#349

Post by aziz77 » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

bell-cot wrote: post #11

Is there anything which involves both... (1) lots of subtle and subjective judgement calls (2) humans yearning to show off their wealth / sophistication / status ...which is NOT fake or widely-faked?

follow up thoughts assuming that _everything_ lives on a simple spectrum of least faked and most faked (1) I posit that certain demographics are _aware_ of the 'fake's or 'widely-faked' things(material, immaterial, symbolic) which they willingly or unconsciously/historically/inadvertently subscribed/habituated/endowed into (1a) how do we ascertain where ourselves (and others) are on that scale of awareness (1b) of the groups who belong on the _less aware_ side of the awareness spectrum, what are the classes of fake things which they subscribe to that they will not concede to be fake at all

(2a) Is there a demographic that willingly/consciously/unconsciously wants to be deceived (2b) What are the classes of things which they normally want to be deceived by?

Connection between wine connoisseurs and notion of high-status is generally accepted and the connection between status, self esteem and serotonin is well established [1-3]. There is one interesting study (which unfortunately i cant access) on rationality (or rather suppression of) during blind wine testing [4] which i presume iterates this point in context of wine

Solomon et al expounded Terror Management Theory[5] based on Becker's Denial of Death[6] which suggests one experimental measure for ascertaining degree of irrational attachment (or degree of irrationality); given a threat or reminder of death, humans will strongly assert whatever symbolic attachment (eg religion, race, choice of text editor, wine vs non wine loving, wine choice, truffle choice) they have and discriminate anyone who belongs to the 'other' due to the serotonin triggering nature of asserting the value of your attachment/identity. What i do want to see is a social/fMRI study of technological workers and 'fashion' ie irrational/subjective choices made in supposedly rational/objective domains (choice of text editors etc), related [7]

[1] Sylwester, Robert. "Serotonin, students, and self-esteem." The Education Digest 63.2 (1997): 16. [2] Breuning, Loretta Graziano. Habits of a happy brain: retrain your brain to boost your serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, & endorphin levels. Simon and Schuster, 2015. [3] Pyszczynski, Tom, et al. "Why do people need self-esteem? A theoretical and empirical review." Psychological bulletin 130.3 (2004): 435. [4] Caltagirone, C., et al. "Rational versus emotional behavioral responses in wine tasting: a transcranial magnetic stimulation experiment." American association of wine economists annual conference. 2011. [5] Greenberg, Jeff, Tom Pyszczynski, and Sheldon Solomon. "The causes and consequences of a need for self-esteem: A terror management theory." Public self and private self. Springer, New York, NY, 1986. 189-212. [6] Becker, Ernest. The denial of death. Simon and Schuster, 1997. [7] Breuning, Loretta. "The neurochemistry of science bias." Groupthink in Science. Springer, Cham, 2020. 3-14.

Re: Is wine fake?

#350

Post by yojo » Tue, Nov 22, 2022, 1:06 AM UTC

bnralt wrote: post #304

antognini wrote: post #49

One of my professors in grad school was really into wine and every couple of years he would put on an after-hours wine tasting class for a semester. One of the points he made was that there are absolutely wines which are objectively better and worse and that experts can reliably tell them apart. He had met enough experts who could identify a vineyard and vintage blind to know there was something to it. But sitting on…

> One of the points he made was that there are absolutely wines which are objectively better and worse and that experts can reliably tell them apart. He had met enough experts who could identify a vineyard and vintage blind to know there was something to it. But sitting on top of that there is a frothy market that is driven by fads, speculation, and hype. I'm sure there are people that can identify different tastes.…

Taste is almost definitionally subjective and culturally mediated. There are trends in flavors, and the ability of a vintner to match those trends is indistinguishable from producing “better” wine.

If you take the drink outside of its reference culture and try to measure how “good” different examples are, you’re going to get nonsense out.

Food and drink don’t exist in a vacuum. To the extent that you live and participate in the culture of wine (I do not), you may find value in spending for a “better” product. On the other hand, I will happily pay a premium for beers with tasting notes like “barnyard” and “wet horse blanket” or rums tasting of “petrol” and “rotten bananas.”