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UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#341

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #339
tptacek wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing employment in the UK peaked in the 1960s and fell most precipitously in the 1980s, which cuts against your hypothesis.

Manufacturing employment is declined due to lots of factors: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2020.00054... > UK manufacturing employment fell especially steeply in the early 1980s during a recession triggered by a high exchange rate and high interest rates. The job losses during these years were documented in particular by Townsend (1983) and Fothergill and Guy (1991) and the process of deindustrial…

Can you support the argument that China somehow deindustrialized the UK, starting in the 2000s? The story of the UK's deindustrialization was discussed well before that, wasn't it? The working class in the UK probably doesn't much care where their jobs are offshored to.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#342

Post by woleium »

mclightning wrote: post #331
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the time when I used to live in UK - You guys have almost no manufacturing and no tech sector. You are importing everything from abroad, yet there is nothing interesting in UK, no reason why I should ever want to get a work visa into the UK. Only thing which works is finance services, but you completely forget on that one during Brexit and you were concentrated on fishing which has almost comically low fraction…

I just moved to UK from Sweden just 6 months ago. I was guessing, there would be a strong will to UnBrexit at this point with all the empirical evidence that Brexit failed But quite surprisingly, this is not the case. I don't have enough information to say why, but I am definitely shocked on the lack of discourse on the matter. There are some small movements, but it goes largely unreported by the mainstream media. Th…

Brexit was arranged by the monied elite after the EU announced it was coming after the various tax havens (BVI, Caymens, etc), so is the media blackout of the debrexit effort.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#343

Post by klelatti »

mike_hearn wrote: post #309
klelatti wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So tell us what entrenched social attitudes were locked in place by EU membership.

That's a book sized topic and I'm probably posting to this thread too much already. Still, go big or go home, right? The EU enforces a very specific economic and social model which prioritizes geopolitical unification over wealth creation. External tariffs are high, there are many other less obvious protectionist policies in place, regulation is vast/constantly growing, there's a lot of grant dependency and internal…

> pursue a more US style model.

> However it isn't on track to do so currently. The social attitudes described above have been a feature of British society for many decades ...

> Alternative parties, alternative social models.

> Brexit will have to assessed by historians over a span of a century or more

Ah I see. All is clear now. If only the British people were different. Britannia unchained.

Thanks for making my point about fantasy economics so thoroughly.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#344

Post by randomsearch »

bambataa wrote: post #304
randomsearch wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single common thread has to be poor governance. Certainly in politics and the civil service and also, from what I hear, amongst business leaders. They are mostly selected from a very small pool, ie public schools via the class system, so it makes intuitive sense that those chosen would on average be less talented / capable (and even motivated) than other countries. Certainly many of those I know who went to private s…

> Single common thread has to be poor governance. Certainly in politics and the civil service and also, from what I hear, amongst business leaders. Strongly agree. I used to work in the civil service and there are many good individuals but the management structure is poor (though I think generally very effective at line management) and plenty of duffers get promoted. Many ministers are really very mediocre. Good idea…

Happen to know a couple of people who have worked with Cummings and Boris.

Cummings seems like a reasonably intelligent guy, if ethically dubious and difficult to work with (putting it mildly). What is shocking is that he looks like a genius when compared to those around him. He has basically read around a bit, thinks for himself, and is open to contrarian ideas. He’s just a reminder of how poor our governance is.

I think the reality is most of our govts are not just incompetent but actively harmful in terms of national interest. Obviously a hard Brexit, which Cameron and Johnson created as a byproduct of their own political schemes, is the greatest symbol of this.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#345

Post by mike_hearn »

klelatti wrote: post #343
mike_hearn wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a book sized topic and I'm probably posting to this thread too much already. Still, go big or go home, right? The EU enforces a very specific economic and social model which prioritizes geopolitical unification over wealth creation. External tariffs are high, there are many other less obvious protectionist policies in place, regulation is vast/constantly growing, there's a lot of grant dependency and internal…

> pursue a more US style model. > However it isn't on track to do so currently. The social attitudes described above have been a feature of British society for many decades ... > Alternative parties, alternative social models. > Brexit will have to assessed by historians over a span of a century or more Ah I see. All is clear now. If only the British people were different. Britannia unchained. Thanks for making my po…

There's nothing fantastical about it. The UK had similar growth rates to the US in the 1980s, it had equal wealth at the start of the 20th century before the wars. Brits and Americans aren't so different. Arguing for being more like the US is therefore the opposite of fantasy economics - the existence proof is right there, sitting across the Atlantic, being very much real and not a fantasy.

This type of shallow, unintellectual dismissal of any thinking outside the EU box is exactly why Remain lost in the end. Describing everyone who pointed out the problems as fantasists, racists etc made the pro-EU side look unclever, unthinking. The "fantasy economics" line was tried over and over, it didn't work because enough people saw through it. The claims of an instant recession were tested and found to be false. Who cares what economists think about Brexit or the EU nowadays? The UK is out and people can see the claims of immediate/total economic devastation weren't true, so there's now potentially a reason to argue for more growth/wealth oriented ways of doing things. Before there wasn't because the EU would stop it anyway, so back then a model more like the US or parts of Asia really was fantasy economics.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#346

Post by klelatti »

mike_hearn wrote: post #345
klelatti wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pursue a more US style model. > However it isn't on track to do so currently. The social attitudes described above have been a feature of British society for many decades ... > Alternative parties, alternative social models. > Brexit will have to assessed by historians over a span of a century or more Ah I see. All is clear now. If only the British people were different. Britannia unchained. Thanks for making my po…

There's nothing fantastical about it. The UK had similar growth rates to the US in the 1980s, it had equal wealth at the start of the 20th century before the wars. Brits and Americans aren't so different. Arguing for being more like the US is therefore the opposite of fantasy economics - the existence proof is right there, sitting across the Atlantic, being very much real and not a fantasy. This type of shallow, unin…

It's a fantasy because there is no democratic consensus for a US model as you have admitted. The UK isn't the US at all by any number of key measures - market size, resources, dollar. The Tories ejected Truss when she tried the 'growth' low tax thing because they knew they were heading for electoral (and financial) disaster.

The UK is in a no-mans land outside of a huge market on our own continent and all you can offer is 'we can try new stuff now'.

I can accept the vote as long as there is an honest discussion about the consequences. What I can't accept is lines like 'Who cares what economists think about Brexit or the EU nowadays?'. Going back to my original point, Brexit has poisoned economic discourse.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#347

Post by Tesl »

kayamon wrote: post #340
yufeng66 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been in finance industry for more than 20 years. People have been talking about replacing USD as reserve currency for as long as I can remember. The problem is nothing else is better. EUR? JPY? GBP? CNY? Gold? All of them have more issues compared to USD.

There's currencies now you can trade online that aren't controlled by any one country.

yeah lets back the real world economy with giant ponzi schemes, good thinking chief.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#348

Post by mike_hearn »

klelatti wrote: post #346
mike_hearn wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing fantastical about it. The UK had similar growth rates to the US in the 1980s, it had equal wealth at the start of the 20th century before the wars. Brits and Americans aren't so different. Arguing for being more like the US is therefore the opposite of fantasy economics - the existence proof is right there, sitting across the Atlantic, being very much real and not a fantasy. This type of shallow, unin…

It's a fantasy because there is no democratic consensus for a US model as you have admitted. The UK isn't the US at all by any number of key measures - market size, resources, dollar. The Tories ejected Truss when she tried the 'growth' low tax thing because they knew they were heading for electoral (and financial) disaster. The UK is in a no-mans land outside of a huge market on our own continent and all you can off…

That's not what fantasy means. If it were, then just 7 years ago you could have said there was no democratic consensus for leaving the EU and that it was a fantasy to suggest it. But that wouldn't have been correct.

My point is that in order to build democratic support for a policy you have to be willing to put in a lot of effort and campaign for it. In the EU there was no point in doing that, because even if you won a democratic victory (an election, referendum, etc) then it didn't matter, the EU would overrule you and the voters, the end.

Yes, Liz Truss tried to do the easy bits of pro-growth policies without the hard bits of actually cutting spending. That doesn't work and she was quickly replaced. The shadow of lockdowns is a long one and the country will be much poorer as a consequence regardless of what politicians do. Nonetheless, I doubt anyone is trying to claim that the new higher tax levels are going to reverse the UK's economic decline.

The UK is not in a "no mans land", that's the sort of emotional catastrophising that this thread is full of. It's a big country and still sells to the EU just as it did before - see my other comments. Exports haven't actually fallen at all because the much vaunted single market wasn't really a single market for the UK's companies anyway so leaving it didn't make much difference.

We all want honest discussions of the consequences. That's why I'm posting on this thread in the first place. Blaming global lockdown/furlough-inducted inflation on Brexit isn't honest economic discourse. Neither is simply insisting on deference to academic/civil service economists, who have been consistently wrong about it.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#349

Post by ID1452319 »

HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #174

The UK is declining, and people are starting to notice it. People are blaming the government, and clamouring for more support and money, but unfortunately I suspect it’s not that simple. The elephant in the room, in my opinion, is that we simply don’t have the money to maintain the standard of living we once enjoyed. Almost all political conversations here are contingent on this fact, but this underlying problem is r…

You need to earn £45k a year in order to pay in more Income Tax than you take out. You need a household income of £60k a year to make a net contribution in VAT.

Only around 20% of people in Britain earn these amounts, which means 80% of people are taking out more than they contribute. I don't know how this compares to other countries but it is clearly unsustainable and I think that now the era of generous Government handouts and cheap borrowing have come to an end, it is starting to bite.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#350

Post by hiven »

kentrado wrote: post #338
hiven wrote: post #283

I think it’s too easy (and tempting) for other countries to sit and poke and hypothesise that a country is falling apart. That was a just a case of sensationalising and far from the truth. As someone presently living in the U.K. it is the same beautiful country full of incredible views, kind people and exciting opportunity that it has always been. Pick any other country, America, France, Brazil, Germany, Australia et…

How is Germany falling apart?

Migrants, energy crisis, inflation, extremism, climate change, export-driven strategy etc. Google “Germany falling apart”, sort by last month, see the absolute dire commentary.
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