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Man of the Hole

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Re: Man of the Hole

#11

Post by shadowgovt »

solarpunk wrote: post #6
epolanski wrote: post #4

Breaks my heart to think at how greed motivates genocides.

I suppose the state of Brazil is something that could be considered a settler colonial project and with it's continued existence this sort of thing remains doomed to happen.

IIUC, the mining operation was extremely illegal (independent of the genocide, which is obviously also illegal).

It happened on Brazil's watch so it's Brazil's responsibility, but I'm ill-convinced convinced that in its absence this wouldn't continue to happen (in its absence, there's no FINRA, no organization protecting these tribes... And there are still people willing to kill for mining profit).

Re: Man of the Hole

#13

Post by MonkeyMalarky »

So, philosophical question here: Human zoos are racist and wrong, right? How is leaving uncontacted tribes alone to live in isolation (but under remote observation) any different? Fun diversions include: the prime directive from star trek and potential diseases spreading from first contact being equivalent to genocide.

I think that in the end, none of debate will matter and that all remaining tribes will either be dead or clumsily brought into civilization without regard for ethics.

Re: Man of the Hole

#14

Post by defrost »

aussiesnack wrote: post #10
defrost wrote: post #8

On a related note, it's not quite forty years since the Pintupi Nine first directly encountered "the modern world": > In 1984 a group of Australian Aboriginal people living a traditional nomadic life were encountered in the heart of the Gibson desert in Western Australia. > They had been unaware of the arrival of Europeans on the continent, let alone cars - or even clothes. > If you want to know how Australian Aborig…

"If you want to know how Australian Aboriginal peoples lived .." is a bit daft (I know you're quoting so I'm not attributing that daftness to you). Australia is a continent with a wide range of ecologies and climatic zones (we're not all hot dry desert!). There were some 500 odd indigenous language groups, living quite differently, despite having some level of continent-wide awareness (via trade routes and songlines)…

Sure, you can watch Milli Milli [1] (for one example) if you're seeking a contrast between Central to Northern Western practices:

> takes the viewer on a cultural travelogue through the three regions of the Kimberleys: the coast, the rivers and tablelands, and the desert.

and you're correct about the breadth of languages across Australia as a whole.

The point stands that this group were first hand direct testimony to Western Desert lifestyles prior to colonial invasion.

One of the more interesting thing about growing up in the less inhabited parts of Western Austrlia (ie. most it given its 3x size of Texas with a pop of > 2 million mostly living in the SW corner) is the direct interaction with many people that still directly connect to traditional lifestyles [2].

[1] https://www.roninfilms.com.au/feature/710/milli-milli.html

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKxmxk6Gas

Re: Man of the Hole

#15

Post by aussiesnack »

defrost wrote: post #14
aussiesnack wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you want to know how Australian Aboriginal peoples lived .." is a bit daft (I know you're quoting so I'm not attributing that daftness to you). Australia is a continent with a wide range of ecologies and climatic zones (we're not all hot dry desert!). There were some 500 odd indigenous language groups, living quite differently, despite having some level of continent-wide awareness (via trade routes and songlines)…

Sure, you can watch Milli Milli [1] (for one example) if you're seeking a contrast between Central to Northern Western practices: > takes the viewer on a cultural travelogue through the three regions of the Kimberleys: the coast, the rivers and tablelands, and the desert. and you're correct about the breadth of languages across Australia as a whole. The point stands that this group were first hand direct testimony to…

Thanks for the film ref. Like most Australians, my knowledge of indigenous folk is patchy at best - a few books and local interactions here and there. I have actually helped hunt/collect & eat goanna (not bad) and turtle eggs (yuck), which probably puts me a bit outside of the Australian norm. But in truth the indigenous world is an entirely 'foreign' culture to most of us. As is European culture to many indigenous folk outside the cities - I came here from the UK and I remember being asked in Cape York whether or not we hunted much Dugong where I came from.

Re: Man of the Hole

#16

Post by chki »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #13

So, philosophical question here: Human zoos are racist and wrong, right? How is leaving uncontacted tribes alone to live in isolation (but under remote observation) any different? Fun diversions include: the prime directive from star trek and potential diseases spreading from first contact being equivalent to genocide. I think that in the end, none of debate will matter and that all remaining tribes will either be de…

There are many differences but first and foremost: the purpose of human zoos was entertainment, in this case it was to protect (and potentially scientific enquiry)

Re: Man of the Hole

#18

Post by lazide »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #13

So, philosophical question here: Human zoos are racist and wrong, right? How is leaving uncontacted tribes alone to live in isolation (but under remote observation) any different? Fun diversions include: the prime directive from star trek and potential diseases spreading from first contact being equivalent to genocide. I think that in the end, none of debate will matter and that all remaining tribes will either be de…

Zoos are artificial environments constructed to put things on exhibit outside of their natural environment for the education and entertainment of others.

A preserve is an area carved out to prohibit the others from going in and screwing with someone or something.

So basically, they’re polar opposites.

Re: Man of the Hole

#19

Post by MonkeyMalarky »

lazide wrote: post #18
MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #13

So, philosophical question here: Human zoos are racist and wrong, right? How is leaving uncontacted tribes alone to live in isolation (but under remote observation) any different? Fun diversions include: the prime directive from star trek and potential diseases spreading from first contact being equivalent to genocide. I think that in the end, none of debate will matter and that all remaining tribes will either be de…

Zoos are artificial environments constructed to put things on exhibit outside of their natural environment for the education and entertainment of others. A preserve is an area carved out to prohibit the others from going in and screwing with someone or something. So basically, they’re polar opposites.

If we had a nature preserve filled with human beings that are unaware of the modern world, left to their own devices and hard lives, the difference in ethics is the entertainment factor? Say their lives aren't broadcast for consumption, is that okay? What about 10, 100 or even 1,000 years from now?

Re: Man of the Hole

#20

Post by lazide »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #19
lazide wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoos are artificial environments constructed to put things on exhibit outside of their natural environment for the education and entertainment of others. A preserve is an area carved out to prohibit the others from going in and screwing with someone or something. So basically, they’re polar opposites.

If we had a nature preserve filled with human beings that are unaware of the modern world, left to their own devices and hard lives, the difference in ethics is the entertainment factor? Say their lives aren't broadcast for consumption, is that okay? What about 10, 100 or even 1,000 years from now?

Were they there before without anyone going out of there way to put them there artificially?

If so, then yup, perfectly fine.

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