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UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

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Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single common thread has to be poor governance. Certainly in politics and the civil service and also, from what I hear, amongst business leaders. They are mostly selected from a very small pool, ie public schools via the class system, so it makes intuitive sense that those chosen would on average be less talented / capable (and even motivated) than other countries. Certainly many of those I know who went to private s…

>Single common thread has to be poor governance. I think a structural issue is aging demographics. Lots of welfare policies were enacted when the ratio of workers to non workers was much higher. For decades now, this ratio has been getting smaller and smaller, hence the constant political dilemma of which benefits to cut and how much and for who. The UK seems like it will especially struggle with delivering universal…

An ageing population and a pensioner class that vote solely for their interests are definitely problems. Notice that pensioners were, once again, the only group protected in the recent statement. They don’t even seem to be aware/grateful for this.

We could avoided a lot of the economic cost of Covid by asking the over-65s to shield and kept the wider economy more or less going, but that was unacceptable to them and instead we shut down everything for their benefit and now they aren’t even willing to contribute to the cost.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#302
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that a government in an elected democracy will solve anything or be any better than the current situation. This has proven to be false over and over again in history. The only countries that flourished and had tremendous economic growth, are those who had a period of more personal freedom and an almost non-existent government. The more government you have, the less can the human spirit succeed in moving th…

Communist China says hi! And the British Empire was hardly a bastion of freedom and yet kickstarted the industrial revolution. Even the USSR, for all ita horrific flaws and mass murdering ways turned the Russian Empire from an agrarian one to an industrial powerhouse in 2 decades.

Communist China has not been a "free country", it has (had?) several free trade zones (FTZs) which are special economic zones where goods may be imported, handled, manufactured and exported without direct intervention from customs. Thus there has been very very limited government and regulation in these FTZs. With minimal government there, the FTZs enabled them to succeed. Everywhere else in China there was (is?) stagnation and the only way out was to move into these FTZs as a citizen to get ahead.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#303
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that a government in an elected democracy will solve anything or be any better than the current situation. This has proven to be false over and over again in history. The only countries that flourished and had tremendous economic growth, are those who had a period of more personal freedom and an almost non-existent government. The more government you have, the less can the human spirit succeed in moving th…

> only countries that flourished and had tremendous economic growth, are those who had a period of more personal freedom and an almost non-existent government I forgot about the famously non-existent ancient Egyptian and modern Chinese governments.

How much do you know about personal freedoms in ancient Egypt that you can argue this quote is false?

We do know about the free economic zones in modern China, which had very very limited government. So these only reinforce my point.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s not clear to me _why_ this has happened I always assumed it was a combination of WW II, collapse of the Empire and then a series of terrible governments since the 1960s.

Single common thread has to be poor governance. Certainly in politics and the civil service and also, from what I hear, amongst business leaders. They are mostly selected from a very small pool, ie public schools via the class system, so it makes intuitive sense that those chosen would on average be less talented / capable (and even motivated) than other countries. Certainly many of those I know who went to private s…

> Single common thread has to be poor governance. Certainly in politics and the civil service and also, from what I hear, amongst business leaders.

Strongly agree. I used to work in the civil service and there are many good individuals but the management structure is poor (though I think generally very effective at line management) and plenty of duffers get promoted. Many ministers are really very mediocre.

Good ideas and techniques are very slowly adopted, but then things like Agile are cargo-culted in an inappropriate way. To be fair, plenty of tech firms do this.

Dominic Cummings has lots of interesting ideas on this on his Substack. When Truss’ mini budget nearly broke pension funds, he pointed out that not only No 10 not know how leveraged they were, but nobody seems to care that they didn’t know. Surely central government should be able to pull together all the data it gathers?

Unfortunately he turned out to be not very good at governing.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#305
post #153
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume that a government in an elected democracy will solve anything or be any better than the current situation. This has proven to be false over and over again in history. The only countries that flourished and had tremendous economic growth, are those who had a period of more personal freedom and an almost non-existent government. The more government you have, the less can the human spirit succeed in moving th…

> “The only countries that flourished and had tremendous economic growth, are those who had a period of more personal freedom and an almost non-existent government.” Post-WWII USA was both a period of big government and tremendous economic growth. The government is just people deciding to come together and delegate power. It’s not something separate from people. Why can’t the “human spirit moving things forward” expr…

In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in the Western world, specifically, the English Revolution of the seventeenth century. Brought birth to a radical libertarian movement, even though only partially successful in its birthplace, Great Britain, it was able to usher in the Industrial Revolution, thereby freeing industry and production from the strangling restrictions of State control and urban government-supported guilds.

The classical liberal movement was, throughout the Western world, a mighty libertarian “revolution” against what we might call the Old Order—the ancien régime which had dominated its subjects for centuries. This regime had, in the early modern period beginning in the sixteenth century, imposed an absolute central State and a king ruling by divine right on top of an older, restrictive web of feudal land monopolies and urban guild controls and restrictions.

The result was a Europe stagnating under a crippling web of controls, taxes, and monopoly privileges to produce and sell conferred by central (and local) governments upon their favorite producers. This alliance of the new bureaucratic, war-making central State with privileged merchants—an alliance to be called "mercantilism" by later historians—and with a class of ruling feudal landlords constituted the Old Order against which the new movement of classical liberals and radicals arose and rebelled in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

-- For a New Liberty / by Murray N. Rothbard

Today we have a much worse alliance of government and privileged monopolies, corporatism. The few have decided that the companies are "responsible" for doing the decisions for us. Effectively removing any personal freedom the people might have, freedoms that most countries had in their constitutions for centuries are today being removed by government-backed corporations, as-if they don't need to exist at all.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#306
I think one thing to remember is the following:

> The Office for National Statistics (ONS) said it was hitting poorer households hardest, as they spent around half of their income on food and energy, compared to about a third for those on middle incomes.

The branded foods that middle-income families eat would likely try to absorb as much of the inflation as possible. It's the "no-brand" food that will rise in cost the most, the food that the poorest families eat.

For example, Tesco (a popular supermarket in the UK) used to have a brand named "Tesco value" which would sell very cheap items, even at a loss sometimes. See the following examples: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wZCcuiS0his

This brand has since been wiped out almost entirely, replaced with "Stockwell", a much more expensive alternative. There is no longer any 'cheap' alternative. You used to be able to buy a tin of beans for 9p about 10 years ago, in the shop the other day I couldn't find any less than 40p.

This wouldn't be a problem if wages also raised at the same rate, but they have been locked as they are in most Countries. The only time we see the wages raise is when then minimum wage legal requirement increases.

But this problem is much worse. The government will increase the payments to the non-working due to the increased cost of living, but as a result they will also increase taxes on those who do work. The increased taxes will move even more families into poverty. You have families where both parents work reasonable jobs above minimal wage, barely paying their bills.

Not to worry though, the ONS are going to redefine troublesome terms such as 'growth' [1] and 'recession' [2].

[1] https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2022/11/11/inclusive-measures-of-gro...

[2] https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2022/11/11/uncertainty-and-the-r-wor...

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#307
post #30

I left the UK for the US in 2019. My I-485 was approved this week. I haven't been able to travel back to the UK since 2019 first because of Covid and then because of the pending I-485 petition. I'll be going back for the first time once my card is delivered. Reading about what has been happening over the past years in the UK while sitting in the US is really strange. Sometimes it feels like reading about a cartoonish…

Being in a similar boat to you (having left the UK in 2018) you won’t really find much is different on a visit except prices are a bit higher than you might remember. All these things in the news are very real but you only really feel them when you live there and your bills are higher than last month, etc It’s quite strange feeling like a “foreigner” in your home country but I suspect you will feel it just as I did w…

> It’s quite strange feeling like a “foreigner” in your home country

It's a bizarre feeling. I visited the UK in 2014 after being away since 2007. I felt so odd and displaced there, I couldn't wait to leave again. Not a reflection on the place, although I was disappointed by how unfriendly people were - almost like all the friendly Brits have left and are the ones I meet overseas.

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#308
post #168
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally they might still be doing way better in the US and that is all that really matters.

For now. I know someone who was "doing waaay better in the US", took 3 weeks of leave and came back to a huge series of lay offs, market saturation, unemployment with no healthcare then his visa renewal was declined. So he had to spend his last wedge of cash getting back to the UK... Took a position with 2/3 of the US salary but actual tangible security.

It is all individual. One can find good and bad examples in either country. But one can't make generalization based on "I know someone".

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Criticism from within the ranks of the Tory government is significant and a sign of shifting tides" Well, the Conservatives officially campaigned to remain and Boris had to kick out dozens of MPs at the last election to even be able to implement the vote at all. Whether someone is a truly reformed Remainer or not has been a question at every leadership contest since. So there's nothing significant or new about Torie…

So tell us what entrenched social attitudes were locked in place by EU membership.

That's a book sized topic and I'm probably posting to this thread too much already. Still, go big or go home, right?

The EU enforces a very specific economic and social model which prioritizes geopolitical unification over wealth creation. External tariffs are high, there are many other less obvious protectionist policies in place, regulation is vast/constantly growing, there's a lot of grant dependency and internal subsidies, the EU theoretically doesn't control tax but in practice has taken control of it anyway and now prevents tax competition (see Ireland), and the ex-Soviet states have provided a legal pool of very cheap labor which has systematically discouraged investments in productivity for decades. The Euro creates a whole other set of problems but fortunately the UK avoided that. Because the EU's scope constantly expands this results in the slow strangulation and homogenization of local politics: huge swathes of policy that people care about are effectively off limits and politicians from all parties simply refuse to discuss them at all, knowing that there's nothing they can do or say because the EU will simply overrule them. It was often very unclear to voters why these "black holes" existed or even what they were exactly, because the middle class consensus was that the EU should be beyond criticism and is at any rate an immovable object, the ever-increasing dominance of which was an unavoidable fact of political life best left undiscussed.

The UK's divergence from the USA in wealth terms isn't directly caused by the EU. That's why I say the EU locked in social problems, rather than causing them. The divergence really kicked into gear after WW2. [1]

Post 1945 the USA continued its more explicitly capitalist and libertarian approach, wheres the UK became wedded to the European social model. Compare employment law between Europe and California, recall all the usual HN discussions about why Europe doesn't create tech startups at the same rates, etc. It's all a part of the same package of attitudes that creates those outcomes. Inside the EU divergence from this model towards something more explicitly pro-business is simply not possible, as the Irish have discovered. They were picking up US tech firms and investments like candy due to their low tax model, but the EU preferred to forcibly align everyone on French levels of corporation tax to avoid "harmful tax competition" [2]. It doesn't even control such taxes by treaty, but treaties are largely irrelevant in Europe - the subservience of the political class and fear of EU retaliation means there are no real checks on its power, and thus they were able to bring Ireland to heel anyway.

Outside of the EU the UK can in theory diverge from this approach and pursue a more US style model, eventually perhaps even catching up with US levels of wealth. Certainly that was a big part of the appeal to a lot of the Brexit campaigners. However it isn't on track to do so currently. The social attitudes described above have been a feature of British society for many decades and the Conservatives are effectively a centre-left party dominated by the need for wealth transfers towards the the pensioner demographic that reliably turns out to vote for them. Even if alternative parties appear, alternative social models start to be discussed and attitudes change, it will take a long time to even re-match the USA in terms of growth, let alone close the gap. That's why I think the impact of Brexit will have to assessed by historians over a span of a century or more, in the same way people still debate the impact of the events of the 1920s today.

So - it creates new options. People haven't even been thinking about those options for nearly 100 years, so nothing is going to happen overnight and it may never happen. But at least it will mostly depend on what voters want.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/maddison-data-gdp-per-cap...

[2] https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/harmful-tax-competitio...

Re: UK food price inflation hit 16.2% in October – cost of food basics surging

#310
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being in a similar boat to you (having left the UK in 2018) you won’t really find much is different on a visit except prices are a bit higher than you might remember. All these things in the news are very real but you only really feel them when you live there and your bills are higher than last month, etc It’s quite strange feeling like a “foreigner” in your home country but I suspect you will feel it just as I did w…

> It’s quite strange feeling like a “foreigner” in your home country It's a bizarre feeling. I visited the UK in 2014 after being away since 2007. I felt so odd and displaced there, I couldn't wait to leave again. Not a reflection on the place, although I was disappointed by how unfriendly people were - almost like all the friendly Brits have left and are the ones I meet overseas.

Mirrors my experience. Despite living in a city known for being quite "cold" (the "Seattle Freeze"), I have found it far easier to make friends here than I ever did in the UK. Even in one of the supposedly most unfriendly cities in the US, I find the vibe far more friendly than in the UK on average.
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