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I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

polygeek.com

81–89 of 89 posts

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is using a solid platform not a good plan?

It may be technically solid but still a bad bet. Flex/Air are essentially deadend platforms as Adobe jumps on the HTML5 bandwagon with its toolset. If he puts his effort into developing his Flex/Air skills, he's targeting a shrinking install base and future market for jobs. If he puts it into HTML/JS/CSS instead, he's targeting a large and growing install base, for mobile, browser and Win8 desktop apps.

See, statements like this really get under my skin, because they're wrong in so many overlapping and crisscrossing ways, it's hard to know where to begin in responding to them.

First, "Flex/AIR", as you say, doesn't make sense -- there is no such thing as "Flex/AIR". Flex is one thing (a bunch of open-source code), AIR is another (a bunch of runtimes). You can't just throw a slash between them and call them the same thing, because they aren't, and indeed Adobe's roadmaps for both are completely separate and in this case divergent. To those who aren't familiar with the Adobe stack, it sounds like you know what you're talking about, but to those who do, you just sound like yet another uninformed FUD-spreader.

As an ActionScript framework, Flex is only "dead-end" insofar as the Flash player itself is dead-end, which at near-total penetration on the desktop puts it about as far from extinction as anything could be. Flex per se, as a Flash-targeted framework, is only dead-end if someone builds something better to replace it, which also doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon, as those of us who do choose to use Flex generally happen to like working with and contributing to it. And last I checked, open sourcing a project was anything but sentencing it to death by definition.

Despite abandoning Flash for mobile browsers, Adobe is actually redoubling its efforts around Flash for the desktop and the various AIR runtimes, which are, of course, extensions of the Flash player.

And not for nothing, but polygeek is already a Flash developer -- he's not "putting his effort" into learning these skills; he already knows them. He's merely complaining about the prospect of having to learn another way of doing something he already knows how to do and enjoys.

For my part, I'm equally experienced in both the Flash stack and in Web scripting, and I dig both; I love my Flex and love my jQuery, love JavaScript and the prospects (if only partially realized) of HTML5, and I've been around long enough to know that both have their applications and there are plenty of places where they don't even remotely overlap -- despite how often comments like this seem to suggest their interchangeability.

So yes -- if you're writing Web apps that'll have to run in mobile browsers, then obviously, you shouldn't use Flash. But Flash and AIR are not going anywhere, and Flex is there for your use if you like. That's a little closer to the truth than "Flex/AIR are dead-end platforms."

FWIW, I'm not responding at this length just because I think you're wrong and feel some need to correct you. As a consultant, fairly recently, I has a good-size project go less than spectacularly because some underinformed product manager decided to impose a "no stinking Flash!" policy on an application intended to run solely on desktops simply because she'd gotten the sense somewhere, God knows where, that HTML5 was trendy, and Flash was passe (and despite my having built several successful Flash projects for them previously). The problem, as I was forced to point out repeatedly as we went through the project, was that many of the functional and design requirements they'd set for it were tailor-made for Flash and Flex and trivial for them, but because they'd excluded it as a technology choice, the equivalent functionality without Flash would require considerably more time, be less uniformly compatible, and in some cases just couldn't even be done. By enforcing no Flash, they ended up with an inferior product, and all because of an arbitrary and unnecessary technical constraint. (And on the next project, they opened the door to Flash again.)

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#82
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't you just concede and repeat what the post said? Or I fail to see the argument.

No. The post is saying "HTML is too complex". The comment is saying "No, it's actually no more complex than anything else you already understand, it's just that you don't understand it yet".

In my reading, the post is saying that the "HTML/CSS required is needlessly complex if you look at how simple things you want as an end result".

A very different claim.

You might understand the code but you might not understand how it was reached from the requirements. There's a bit too much obscure and mystical stuff.

Well designed systems require you to know the basics and you can behave logically from there on so that you can deduce by yourself how things can be made to work.

Relative positioning and divs or styles inside other divs/styles, text linebreaks and all that has no real dependable logic in CSS, at least didn't a few years ago when I last tried doing it by hand. It required a huge amount of trial and error.

http://www.timjpriebe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/css-mug...

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#83
I think people are getting a little confused. He's not saying that web developers are geniuses for understand HTML, because they aren't, he's saying that using HTML/CSS to create the type of dynamic sites we are now used to, is stupid. And he's right.

Web development feels like black magic with the amount of hacking and kludging involved, after developing native apps. And not in a good way. And not because i lack understanding or anything.

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#84

it also means that "I'm too lazy to figure out that there is no such html developer". html is all about a few xml tags. everybody can do it. I know some music bands, authors and politicians who code website learning basic html. and I see some developers who ignores coding html because they think they're too smart to code a simple website. no comment.

Can we get over this? This "LOL He's calling himself an HTML DEVELOPER of all things!" mentality isn't helping anyone. You don't see spiders belittling us for calling ourselves "web developers," do you? You especially can't do this now that WHATWG and W3C have started to confuse and redefine what HTML/HTML5 is and the technologies behind it. So, let's breathe a little, and accept that if professionals can get called…

I really cant believe that we're discussing this, the most stupid, simple language in the world!

I respect HTML coders and am aware of that they do fantastic job on frontend.

But nobody has to be talented HTML developer to build websites. It's stupid easy to do it. I'm a guy who never learnt HTML and am considered as a coder good at developing good websites.

Nevermind. I don't like this kind of pointless discussions. I don't like HN anymore.

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#85
post #40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When adobe eventally pause to ponder the Doom hanging over the flash ecosystem, they will realize that it was Flex that killed it.

Curious, what makes you say that?

It created too many divergent paths for developers to follow. One of the great strengths of the flash runtime was how much easier it was to write something that would run in any browser, all with one clear API and one set of ui components that were easily extensible. Flex introduced far too many component sets and encouraged the creation of overwrought java-like frameworks. Eventually even js started looking better in comparison. The only reason they even did that was because they got greedy. They had a decent enough IDE with the flash authoring tool (although it needed additional support and features for pure actionscript developers), but they decided to throw their weight behind flex instead. Of course, flex was totally unusable for designers, and mxml was a godawful pile of shit, so they created catalyst to allow collaboration between designers and devs. Now you've got three different tools all targeting the same runtime, and they all suck. So now if you're just getting into programming for the flash runtime, you have to sort through all kinds of garbage to find what you're looking for, pretty much the same (if not worse) as scrounging around for js tutorials/documentation.

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#86
post #77
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latest browser which doesn't support margin:auto is IE5.5, and even there the text-align:center hack is a better option. There are cases where you might want to use negative margins, but for horizontally centering block level elements, it is at best outdated.

Unless you use a strict doctype. http://stever.ca/web-design/centering-a-div-in-ie8-using-mar... I don't think text-align: center on the parent box is significantly different in principle: confusing until you know why it's being done that why and roughly how it works. Personally I like negative margin better than text-align: center since the style is only applied to the box being centered rather than the parent box a…

Yea, that IE8 bug is unfortunate.

Here's an example of text-align: center and margin: auto side-by-side: http://jsfiddle.net/wH5Pd/

Try making the window narrower so that the html pane in the bottom right gets horizontal scroll bars. (In the real world, there might be a two column layout, such that the textual content fits in the narrow window, but the full width of the content doesn't.)

Even when the window is narrow, all of the content in the top div can be accessed by scrolling horizontally. In bottom div, the left hand side of the content gets clipped because it is positioned to the left of the window, and scroll bars don't extend into negative offsets. If you're positioning an adornment which doesn't actually need to be visible, the negative margin trick might be OK. But for normal body content, margin: auto is the way to go.

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we get over this? This "LOL He's calling himself an HTML DEVELOPER of all things!" mentality isn't helping anyone. You don't see spiders belittling us for calling ourselves "web developers," do you? You especially can't do this now that WHATWG and W3C have started to confuse and redefine what HTML/HTML5 is and the technologies behind it. So, let's breathe a little, and accept that if professionals can get called…

I really cant believe that we're discussing this, the most stupid, simple language in the world! I respect HTML coders and am aware of that they do fantastic job on frontend. But nobody has to be talented HTML developer to build websites. It's stupid easy to do it. I'm a guy who never learnt HTML and am considered as a coder good at developing good websites. Nevermind. I don't like this kind of pointless discussions.…

> I really cant believe that we're discussing this

You can't? You're the one that brought it up and whine about it.

> Nevermind. I don't like this kind of pointless discussions. I don't like HN anymore.

You realize you bring this discussion here, right? If you don't want to see it discussed here, don't bring it here.

If you see others bring it here, tell them to stop (as I did to you).

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#88

I honestly find it easier to build UI elements from the ground up over using plug-ins, because like with any other code if you are the one who developed it you understand it . I too have been turned off by lightbox and slider plugins for jQuery, and find it easier to just come up with that kind of thing myself rather than jump into someone else's codebase.

>because like with any other code if you are the one who developed it you understand it

You're suffering classic NIH syndrome. Take ownership of the library you use, jump in and get an understanding of whats going on there.

It will be quicker than re-inventing the wheel, and getting up to speed with an existing codebase is a skill that you'll need at some point.

Re: I’m too lazy to be a HTML developer

#89
post #88

I honestly find it easier to build UI elements from the ground up over using plug-ins, because like with any other code if you are the one who developed it you understand it . I too have been turned off by lightbox and slider plugins for jQuery, and find it easier to just come up with that kind of thing myself rather than jump into someone else's codebase.

>because like with any other code if you are the one who developed it you understand it You're suffering classic NIH syndrome. Take ownership of the library you use, jump in and get an understanding of whats going on there. It will be quicker than re-inventing the wheel, and getting up to speed with an existing codebase is a skill that you'll need at some point.

Maybe, I mean I still use jQuery and any else that's relevant but a lightbox is such an aesthetic, simple thing that I wouldn't consider it NIH to prefer creating one that suits a website more (if the website's design is a big focus)
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