271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book • Hacker News Board

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#21

Post by pessimizer » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 1:04 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #15

bcardarella wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're vastly underestimating the complexity of this problem. In tech we're a bit spoiled because of how digital everything in our orbit is. This is why Pantone licensing for the web is so stupid. But when you go into industries that have physical products the cost these companies would have to do proper color matching on their own is where Pantone's system makes sense. They simplified, codified, standardized, and co…

So basically, they want some money to map RGB values to a set of numbers, each of which enumerates the output of a ridiculously challenging chemistry project?

> they want some money to map RGB values to a set of numbers

Sorry to reiterate this in another thread, but what they want is some money to map the output of a ridiculously challenging chemistry project to some RGB values that will give a vaguely similar impression.

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#22

Post by pessimizer » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 1:10 AM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #20

pessimizer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a license to use any color in Photoshop. You need a license for a collection of stand-in mappings for spot colors, the vast majority of which can't be convincingly represented on a monitor. You can ignore Pantone entirely, put in whatever color you want, and nobody will know or complain. You can even use any color you want in Photoshop, then make a plate out of it for the press, and tell people the Pan…

Pantone sells mixed inks in a bucket. Printing presses tend to only have cyan, magenta, yellow, black ink in them. The density of those inks varies naturally as a printing press runs. That variation isn't kind to business identity colors. It's not kind to photos either but human vision helps adapt to these variations, with some limits. Specific colored ink mixed in a bucket is much more stable on press, minimal varia…

> Printing presses tend to only have cyan, magenta, yellow, black ink in them.

This isn't right. Printing presses don't come with inks, you mix inks and load them onto the press. Printers tend to only have CMYK, and that's also not true for many high end printers, because CMYK is a very restrictive gamut. Hell, the reason for the K is because CMY can't do a good black.

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#23

Post by dahart » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 1:11 AM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #8

Interestingly, neither the web page nor the previous threads address that the colors in the book might have changed/faded over the centuries, depending on the dyes used. The pages probably didn’t get significant light exposure, but heat and chemical factors might have had an impact. And, of course, the photos might not be completely color-accurate.

> heat and chemical factors might have had an impact

Pretty much guaranteed by the fact the pages are yellow, presumably paper acidity? When I wrote my thesis, it was supposed to be on acid-free paper and archival, but I snuck in some color printed pictures, and boy did that not work out so well. 20 years later and the pages are yellow and the colors are fading.

> the photos might not be completely color-accurate

It’s hard to imagine how the web version could be accurate at all, I wouldn’t count on it, and none of the blogs nor the book mention their methodology. Even with a lot of knowledge and care, you need to know the illumination conditions (spectra of the lights) and the camera used, and the color space it was encoded into, and your display device has to be calibrated.

The best way to reproduce the colors might be to follow Boogert’s recipes for the paint, which I think is what he documented?

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#24

Post by layer8 » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 1:40 AM UTC

dahart wrote: post #23

layer8 wrote: post #8

Interestingly, neither the web page nor the previous threads address that the colors in the book might have changed/faded over the centuries, depending on the dyes used. The pages probably didn’t get significant light exposure, but heat and chemical factors might have had an impact. And, of course, the photos might not be completely color-accurate.

> heat and chemical factors might have had an impact Pretty much guaranteed by the fact the pages are yellow, presumably paper acidity? When I wrote my thesis, it was supposed to be on acid-free paper and archival, but I snuck in some color printed pictures, and boy did that not work out so well. 20 years later and the pages are yellow and the colors are fading. > the photos might not be completely color-accurate It’…

Yes, I tried to be cautious in my assumptions, but I suspect the colors in the photos to be substantially different from what they originally were. I’d be curious if the original colors could be reconstructed by analyzing the dyes, but of course with 800 pages (I don’t know how many color patches) that could be a lot of work.

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#25

Post by Waterluvian » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 1:54 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #19

Waterluvian wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $15 they want is to map an RGB to a Pantone number, no? Or maybe the detail is important: to also define which RGB values have a corresponding Pantone. Ie. “You can accurately print this number! Give the printing apparatus these numbers and they’ll mix the pigments precisely based on formulas they have (and probably also paid for?)

> The $15 they want is to map an RGB to a Pantone number, no? The exact opposite, but close enough. > to also define which RGB values have a corresponding Pantone. Ie. “You can accurately print this number! This is still backwards. Pantone has not gone through the RGB numbers and figured what inks they could make. Pantone has made inks, and when people need to work on a screen, with projects that will use those inks,…

Okay thank you so much for sharing. I’ve really enjoyed this thread because it feels like I better understand the nuances of the issue and can better articulate my perspective on it.

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#26

Post by josephcsible » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 2:13 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #17

Terretta wrote: post #2

Maybe no license fees to use 271 year old colors in your Photoshop files?

You don't need a license to use any color in Photoshop. You need a license for a collection of stand-in mappings for spot colors, the vast majority of which can't be convincingly represented on a monitor. You can ignore Pantone entirely, put in whatever color you want, and nobody will know or complain. You can even use any color you want in Photoshop, then make a plate out of it for the press, and tell people the Pan…

There is a useful service Pantone is providing: when I want a physical thing to be a certain color, I can buy that color ink from them to get it consistently. But once I've applied the ink to the thing in question, it's mine like that forever. Imagine that Pantone demanded all of their customers to pay them protection money every month, or they'd send their goons to spray-paint black over everything you ever used their inks on. That'd obviously be completely unacceptable in the physical world, so why is it acceptable for them to do it to your .psd files?

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#27

Post by mncharity » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 2:22 AM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #8

Interestingly, neither the web page nor the previous threads address that the colors in the book might have changed/faded over the centuries, depending on the dyes used. The pages probably didn’t get significant light exposure, but heat and chemical factors might have had an impact. And, of course, the photos might not be completely color-accurate.

Witness pages 97 and 101. https://bibliotheque-numerique.citedulivre-aix.com/viewer/35...

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#28

Post by Terretta » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 3:19 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #17

Terretta wrote: post #2

Maybe no license fees to use 271 year old colors in your Photoshop files?

You don't need a license to use any color in Photoshop. You need a license for a collection of stand-in mappings for spot colors, the vast majority of which can't be convincingly represented on a monitor. You can ignore Pantone entirely, put in whatever color you want, and nobody will know or complain. You can even use any color you want in Photoshop, then make a plate out of it for the press, and tell people the Pan…

I took two print shops digital, one before and one after Mac/Aldus/Adobe etc., so I'm getting enjoying this thread.

Nearly wrote "Maybe no license fees to map 271 year old color names in Adobe PSD files?" but thought that might be too obscure for HN. Apparently not. :-)

Good education below. To thread's point, in both cases (the watercolors, and Pantone), the work is in determining repeatable formulations, and building/maintaining a reference. It's inane, though, given the rest of ecosystem is licensed, to suddenly charge for the map in a PSD to keep working or go to black.

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#29

Post by fuzzfactor » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 3:51 AM UTC

>the color book was intended as an educational guide. The irony being there was only a single copy that was probably seen by very few eyes.

If one of someone's life's works is very particular, and is further documented in such a detailed way it could only be a personal achievement itself, you've got to figure it's not going to be very common to find someone else who could use the document any time soon.

In this case where each color page may be worth a thousand words or something like that.

They would first have to make it part of their own life's work in pursuit of that subject to begin with.

Which may not be likely to happen during the author's lifetime anyway.

So why would they need more than one copy, especially when reproduction itself could be a much more unlikely hurdle to overcome compared to manuscripting?

These are the types of books most all of which are usually lost.

Leaving us with the slim pickings we have today. If only there were better preservation & archiving over the millennia.

Naturally the fewer the copies, and the less-rapid international communication at the time, the more centuries you would expect it to take before advanced people like that or their reference document gain some kind of worldwide recognition.

Re: 271 years before Pantone, every color imaginable in an 800-page book

#30

Post by Villodre » Sun, Nov 20, 2022, 4:00 AM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #8

Interestingly, neither the web page nor the previous threads address that the colors in the book might have changed/faded over the centuries, depending on the dyes used. The pages probably didn’t get significant light exposure, but heat and chemical factors might have had an impact. And, of course, the photos might not be completely color-accurate.

That was in my mind for the entire length of the article, and I readily went to the comment sections expecting it to be addressed. I saved, from a previous job and just for curiosity's sake, a Pantone colour book that I was told wasn't usable any more because it was several decades old and the pigments would have faded or changed from the original tones.