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Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

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Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#161

The question that the referenced paper (1) is trying to answer is "do the 3D incompressible Euler equations develop a finite time singularity from smooth initial data of finite energy?" This is an important question in the theory of nonlinear partial differential equations, but is probably not as relevant to real fluid flow as a lay reader might imagine. The incompressible Euler equations model a very strange and unp…

Yes, in pure/applied math, we know a lot about various cases of approximation. But in practice there are more cases of approximation, and, right, the Euler equations are another such case. Or, to be a little flippant, generally in applications to real problems, we look at a lot of the features and throw out some, modify some, and actually honor some!!

So, a question is, can we improve our ability to make such approximations and know something about the accuracy of the solutions we will get? E.g., for the Euler equations, will that approximation of an "incompressible" fluid ever work in practice and, if so, when and, there, how accurate can/will it be?

Or, what about, hmm, just to be picky and pick something, friction on the side of the tube? What if the tube is not a perfect tube?

A few grains of dirt: What if the liquid is water but, like most real water, has some solids floating around in it? Right, we can say, so there are a few grains of dirt floating around in the water, and they won't matter -- to be picky, that's an approximation, and we are likely correct, but where is an actual math theorem that says we are correct or how correct, i.e., accurate, are we? Right, a few grains of dirt -- we don't much care. But that's practical judgment and not really theorem/proof math.

And similarly for other approximations we get as we throw out, modify, or honor real features?

So, as stated, this is too difficult as a pure/applied math research direction. Okay, ..., then, is there anything at all in that direction that might be not absurdly difficult as a research direction?

Or, to be simplistic, we work hard and get a numerical solution to a boundary value problem. Now someone tweaks the boundary. Can we say that our numerical solution is only tweaked? Or, when can we say that small changes in the problem statement will result in only small changes in the solution? Right, we are into some topology and looking for a case of continuity .... Hmm .... If we had some linearity ...!!! Right, the two pillars of analysis are continuity and linearity ...! But here with Euler we were considering nonlinear partial differential equations!

Again I ask, is there any hope we can do anything for some corresponding math??

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#162
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the point I was making. Many do not seems to see the fundamental issue at play here, and another way to think of them is what you have hinted at: the role of language. There is no objective way to nail down the meaning of words, like "consistent", "proof", "equal", etc. Suppose one wanted a maximally rigorous definition of "equal". Does it mean two things that cause people to think of the same thing when they…

Equality is actually quite easy to axiomatise in most logics, here in my favourite logic: 1) x = x 2) x = y => P[x] => P[y] In my opinion, there is a mathematical reality, which is shared by everyone, even by those who don't believe in it :-) For example, a logical system exists in that reality, and you can either derive a theorem in that system or not in this reality. I don't think it is possible that there is a thi…

Can you put into words the symbolic notation you have in your comment? I think I understand pretty well what you mean, but for the avoidance of doubt, explain what the notation means, and then I will indicate all the assumptions on which it is relying.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that mathematics gives us power to predict events in the real world makes it independent of social consensus. If everyone in the world believes that 2+2=5, that doesn't make it less true that 2+2=4 - in the sense that I know for sure, if I take throw two rocks on a pile of two rocks, I'll get a pile of four rocks, not five rocks. I hate this sociologist view that everything depends on the social consensus. G…

I know nothing of OP, or the professor he talked to, but I think they might be talking about the higher level concepts of math. For example, set theory. If set theory allowed self reference you could have set R, a set of sets that do not contain themselves. Would R contain R? It can’t, but it can’t not either. It’s self contradictory. The solution, reached through consensus, was to restrict the definition of the set…

The way I learned how to resolve the Russell paradox: Over here on the left in a pile we have the elements we will work with. Now, for the sets, they are made of the elements and are in a separate pile, are over here on the right. Sooo, with this little preliminary step, there is no way to consider the set of all sets that are not elements of themselves.

As I recall, there was a paper by Robert Tarjan where he observed that most paradoxes are from self referencing. Soooo, rule out self referencing and will rule out most paradoxes!

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#164
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality is actually quite easy to axiomatise in most logics, here in my favourite logic: 1) x = x 2) x = y => P[x] => P[y] In my opinion, there is a mathematical reality, which is shared by everyone, even by those who don't believe in it :-) For example, a logical system exists in that reality, and you can either derive a theorem in that system or not in this reality. I don't think it is possible that there is a thi…

Can you put into words the symbolic notation you have in your comment? I think I understand pretty well what you mean, but for the avoidance of doubt, explain what the notation means, and then I will indicate all the assumptions on which it is relying.

It would be somewhat lengthy to explain its meaning exactly here. You can read about its exact meaning and its context here: https://doi.org/10.47757/pal.2

In short what it usually means (the exact meaning depends on the model under consideration) is that there is a binary operation "=", such that "x = x" is a theorem, that is evaluating "x = x" will evaluate to "true" for any object x in the mathematical universe. Furthermore, for any unary proper operator "P", and any two objects x and y of the mathematical universe, the expression "(x = y) => (P[x] => P[y])" will also evaluate to "true". Here "=>" is another binary operation called implication, which has some special properties outlined in the link. P[x] denotes the application of the operator P to the object x.

Edit: Oh, forgot to add the third axiom for equality (it is actually more an axiom about "true", but uses equality):

3) A => (A = true)

What this means is that for any object A of the mathematical universe, if you evaluate "A => (A = true)", you obtain the value "true".

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#165
Computer assisted proof is not a new idea. The most famous example is the four color theorem, which (as far as I know) does not have a humanly understandable proof. For this particular proof, it looks like the computer assisted part would be similar to writing down hundreds of pages of checkable inequalities. One way to do this is to use interval arithmetic, which always guarantees the answer is within the a certain given interval.

Mathematicians have split opinions about computer assisted proof. On one hand, there doesn't seem to be a real difference between one page of checkable inequalities vs 500 pages of checkable inequalities. On other other hand, computer assisted proof do not help humans gain clarity on the logical process. The fear is that the computer result will just be an "one and done" result, which people believe is true, but cannot build upon because they don't fully understand it.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#166

I remember my math professor at university telling me that truth in mathematics was a social construct, and that nothing was true until a social consensus had been reached between mathematicians. This struck me at the time as a very powerful statement, yet unexpected, since very much not what most people expect from mathematics. After all, it's supposed to be a field where there is such a thing as a (most of the time…

I think this is not the right way to look at it. You can think of mathematical proofs as computer program that is compiled by the mathematician by hand. There is a lot of room for error, but with practice and peer review, it's relatively easy to avoid the common errors. This human compiler also brings the benefit of error correcting, which commonly correct two types of errors: sometimes the proof makes syntactical mistakes that the human compiler fixes automatically, sometimes the proof claims something that's not fully justified (similar to calling a function that is not implemented), but the human compiler just fill in the detail themselves. The social part of mathematics is really about how much error the reviewer is willing to accept, because the reviewer can also be wrong with how they correct the proof.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#167

The question that the referenced paper (1) is trying to answer is "do the 3D incompressible Euler equations develop a finite time singularity from smooth initial data of finite energy?" This is an important question in the theory of nonlinear partial differential equations, but is probably not as relevant to real fluid flow as a lay reader might imagine. The incompressible Euler equations model a very strange and unp…

This raises a question I hadn't thought of before. Real-world fluid flow is ultimately well-modeled by the equations of many-body Newtonian mechanics, right (atoms bumping around)? Are those equations vulnerable to blow-ups?

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#168

The question that the referenced paper (1) is trying to answer is "do the 3D incompressible Euler equations develop a finite time singularity from smooth initial data of finite energy?" This is an important question in the theory of nonlinear partial differential equations, but is probably not as relevant to real fluid flow as a lay reader might imagine. The incompressible Euler equations model a very strange and unp…

Best comment I ever read on HN.

Wow, I'm honored :) These days, I try to only comment when an article is really in my wheelhouse, but that's not very often, given my narrow interests in fluid dynamics and computational physics.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#169
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether any given formal system actually is consistent is not dependent on consensus, it is a fact, either true or false, completely independent of consensus. The definition of "consistent" seems completely entangled with a given social group's ideas of "rational". You might imply that our word for it hints at a Platonic ideal of "consistent", but if that's true, then you're caught in an infinite cascade of which n…

Exactly the point I was making. Many do not seems to see the fundamental issue at play here, and another way to think of them is what you have hinted at: the role of language. There is no objective way to nail down the meaning of words, like "consistent", "proof", "equal", etc. Suppose one wanted a maximally rigorous definition of "equal". Does it mean two things that cause people to think of the same thing when they…

Have you perchance been reading a lot of Wittgenstein?

I think you're conflating universality and objectivity. Those terms you list all have objective definitions, but the specific characteristics they have in any given logic may differ. That means they are not universal, but that doesn't make them non-objective. Objective typically means "mind independent".

Your example of equality already demonstrates you understand equality's objective definition: you implicitly operate on the notion that "equality" means some form of equivalence, some ability to substitute B for C in a specific context that results in no observable/expressible change. That is an informal but objective understanding of equality.

What you're recognizing is that equality can have different logical properties in different contexts, where "context" can be understood as the formal language we're using, ie. it's not universal. But it's role in any given logic is always the same and not dependent on the provers mind state or his surrounding culture, ie. it is objective.

Godel showed that there is no such thing as a universal logic in our current approach to formal systems, but that didn't suddenly make logic non-objective. It simply means that there is no Ur-logic that can subsume all other logics (which is why most assert that Godel ended Hilbert's program).

So what logics a culture or species may use or find interesting, and the process by which they explore these systems are socially contextual, but the structures themselves and their internal consistency is not socially constructed. A culture can certainly believe a formal system they use to be logically consistent, but that's no more interesting a statement than that some cultures believed that Thor caused lightning. In other words, they could just be wrong about the consistency of their arguments.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK, it seems easy to imagine an alien mathematics based only upon continuous values? There's nothing obviously universal about discretizing things.

Firstly, the reals contain the integers, so there is an isomorphism as I said. Secondly, discretization absolutely is universal. It's literally in the laws of physics for one (particles are discrete, energy levels are discrete, etc.). For another, are you suggesting a physical alien species will have a continuous number of appendages, or organs, or that their population will somehow be continuous? I frankly don't see…

Eh, you're not explaining universal truths here, you're just anthropomorphizing. Why must it have appendages, organs, or populations? Why presuppose that its conceptual model includes particles at all? What if a vast, hyper-continuous intelligence simply cannot comprehend the concept of being discrete?
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