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Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

trevorklee.substack.com

321–330 of 387 posts

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old should people be allowed to get? Why are the old less valuable to you? A life is a life, is it not?

It had never been this simple. A child dying is pretty universally seen as worse than an 85 year old dying.

I feel like the greatest tragedy of them all is a 53 year old person dying.

Why 53?

No reason. No reason at all. I may change my view on this in a few months however.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#322
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"people need to sleep" Sleep is almost impossible with regular check-ups... 30 min or 60 min, don't remember. Excepting the comatose and most medicated(maybe not?), a person's sleep cycle is unable to reach REM when a stranger approaches and fiddles on regular intervals. I would think monitoring from afar(sensors, cameras) would be more beneficial, but I was informed the liability factors preclude such remote monito…

More than 10 years ago now, I was in the ICU for myocarditis, leading to bradycardia, a very slow heart rate. During the night, it would drop to 40 (which is still fine), but sometimes below 30, at which point my heart monitor would blare an alarm, waking me up and scaring the absolute bejesus out of me, raising my heart rate immensely. A nurse would walk in, see that I was fine, and leave again. This occurred nightl…

I don't understand this post. It reads like "have your cake and eat it too". The the heart monitor did not blare an alarm, maybe you died. Which one do you want?

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#323

Interesting take. I was in a paediatric cardiac ICU when my daughter battled with heart disease for 7 of her 8 month life. Another dad who we got close to in the ICU said the phrase "practising medicine says it all...". My experience is same same but different. It was during COVID, so we welcomed the nurse change, sad/happy to see one go and welcome another. Paediatric ICUs and their staff, I'd say are top tier in mo…

I'm a cynic to some degree. I think suffering doesn't ennoble people for the most part - it just makes them bitter and angry.

I realize this wasn't your point - and who knows maybe I'm misreading you - but this comment makes me reconsider my view on that. I have a child and having to go through something like what you describe makes me feel sick. Doing that and then having any degree of empathy - sympathy even - for the people involved is a credit to you.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#324
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. Any educated layperson can figure out and follow a clinical decision tree. I mean it can work in your favor if you know you need something and know how to get the decision tree to give you what you want, but otherwise clinicians should definitely be actual experts and not just meat following something a computer could do

> Any educated layperson can figure out and follow a clinical decision tree. 12-15h a day, 6 days a week with not even a lunch break? You're sorely mistaken. It takes an expert to follow clinical workflows.

Are all doctors working these hours? I thought these were the hours for residency, not the average general practitioner or specialist working outside of a hospital. If they’re working 15 hours a day, why are they only open 8?

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#325
post #289
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's so tiresome and frustrating. I once had a period of a few months where my sleep was down to around 5 hours/night (normally I would get 8-9), I was exhausted and my body just wouldn't sleep more than that. Went to a doctor who offered a couple of thoughts "some people only need that much sleep" and "there's only one thing it could be, but that's not what it is". He wasn't even going to test the "one thing" u…

The fact that they’re more open to believing that anything might work cuts both ways :)

I think when dealing with chronic issues, it might be better to optimize for luck. [0] A little ridiculousness like homeopathy might be worth it to find the thing that actually works.

[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fFY2HeC9i2Tx8FEnK/luck-based...

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#326
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think state money comes from? Even if it’s the government that foots the bill for ICUs, in the end it will still be paid collectively by all of us regular people.

Where do you think the for-profit money goes? (HINT: it’s in the name.)

Most hospitals in the US actually are non-profits, but that’s really beside the point. Just because something is for profit or non profit does not allow you to immediately conclude anything about its cost. For example, the government in my city built a 3 stall public restroom at a cost of $638,000. At this price, if I wanted to have a restroom built on my behalf, I’d rather hire a for-profit contractor to do it instead of the putatively non profit state.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#327
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have great respect for what people like you do. I've lived all over Europe and a have some first hand experience with care in different countries. Universally, nurses are heroes and it's just a very hard and often thankless job. Not to mention under paid in many places. But there's a big difference in what I would label as institutional stupidity between different countries. Some countries feature a lot of mismanag…

The only bad thing about Dutch healthcare is that, if you are not acutely in need, it can take months to get a spot.

I'd say that's universal across many countries. The flip side is that Dutch insurers do allow their patients to shop around for care. E.g. getting treated in Belgium or Germany for routine procedures is fairly common. Mostly these just are shortages of staff, equipment, etc. and being efficient sometimes also means that available care is fully utilized. Which just means people have to wait for non critical things sometimes.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#328
post #161

I'm a nurse and I find the 7th point on the post especially relevant. I will add a disclaimer that I never worked in the ICU so I can't speak for what happens in that type of unit. There is a serious issue with the flow of information in healthcare, (or at least in the U.S, I never worked elsewhere to know if it's any different). But If you find something during your shift which will be important to know later on, it…

Thanks for sharing! Even outside the medical field, it seems like most humans are pretty bad about both writing down and consulting notes. Even worse for the notes written by another human. We really aren't particularly good at transferring knowledge / experience and it takes a lot of effort to do a good job of it, so most people don't even make much of an effort. This really seems like a problem that still needs a l…

I liked the way you framed this as something universal. Is there any field where one can quickly reference knowledge from your peers to just as quickly solve a problem in practice? Maybe it's asking too much. Though I suppose it wouldn't be necessary to get everyone on board with such an idea if you have that single coordinator who everyone knows as the reference point. Although, if you think about it, even then that person would have to be available 24/7, which isn't feasible.

With patient documentation specifically, what I would really love to have is a simple search mechanism for patient notes. This still wouldn’t solve the problem of getting everyone to capture the right information. But assuming the information is there, and I'm having a real hard time sticking that right arm, I would love to be able to search for "arm", "blood draw," "stick" and see what pops up. I hope it's not something I missed entirely, but I have never used an EMR with such a feature.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#329
In my few (luckily) interactions with American hospitals for serious matters I’m struck by how much the hospital looks like a unified organization from the outside but inside seems little more than common real estate and a joint marketplace for 1000 sub vendors. The system can produce amazing outcomes but suffers from a lack of coordination. It is telling that after a hospital stay you get 20 bills from different places which have no connection to each other.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's cynical about stating the truth? Are you disagreeing with his observations, or just hoping he'd have the good taste to keep them to himself?

Saying ICU are overproportionally occupied by the lederly, abd very young also if this a different ICU, is a fact. Continuing to say that is reason "you" have to wait for getting a slot and asking whether or not the observed sotuation is actually hood is cynical.

I’m a layman with no knowledge of how ICUs work, because (thank God), I’ve never had to visit one.

I found this article informative, and not cynical at all. No system is perfect, and so with all of the significant benefits they provide, ICUs have some things they aren’t best for.

> Continuing to say that is reason "you" have to wait for getting a slot and asking whether or not the observed sotuation is actually hood is cynical.

I see you bashing the author, but you haven’t made a coherent argument at all. In fact, I’m not sure if this is even English.

If there’s something op got wrong, help us understand and make it a teaching moment. Just bashing them isn’t productive.

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