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Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

quantamagazine.org

81–90 of 223 posts

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A computer is always just a function from {0,1}^N -> {0,1}^M > The "Inf" interpretation, of, eg., 11111111111111111 isnt infinity. This is incoherent nonsense. If you want to say that the floating point value "infinity" isn't really infinity, you must also say that nothing else is really infinity either. That is true in a completely useless and uninformative sense, but it's false in every sense a person would ever…

I'm not sure where your misunderstanding comes from, but at least, you might consider you're disagreeing with an article on quanta magazine which writes up a project by experts in their field. In any case, no. The idea that a finite number of bits in a particular state "must just be infinity!!!! because the IEEE ref docs say so" is strange to say the least. The issue is to demonstrate that a given function, say f, fo…

> The issue is to demonstrate that a given function, say f, for given real-valued inputs, say x, has an output y which is not real-valued and goes to infinity.

Why would the output need to be not real? There's no difficulty with saying a real-valued function has a singularity.

The issue is to demonstrate that this function has a singularity at some point, yes. Simulation is a bad way to do that, though conceivably you could get lucky.

> A computer cannot demonstrate such a thing, because real-valued functions aren't computable.

Obviously false; computers are fully capable of providing proofs that some function has an infinite limit somewhere.

> The idea that a finite number of bits in a particular state "must just be infinity!!!! because the IEEE ref docs say so" is strange to say the least.

That is the only way anything is ever infinity - by designation. As I pointed out elsewhere, IEEE infinity has all the correct mathematical properties of positive infinity in the extended reals, so it's difficult to see what you think you're saying.

> I'm not sure where your misunderstanding comes from, but at least, you might consider you're disagreeing with an article on quanta magazine which writes up a project by experts in their field.

Writing about an expert doesn't make you any smarter. The reason proffered by Quanta is nonsense. They are correct that the experiment they describe cannot achieve the goal sought; they are quite obviously wrong about why.

> infinity isn't a bit pattern; and isn't here in any relevant sense even a number; the IEEE standard may as well have said "Overflow"

That's what infinity is. In every sense. Overflowing is defined by exceeding a boundary; infinity is defined by exceeding all boundaries.

I'm morbidly intrigued by your fetish for the idea of "bit patterns". Infinity is also not an image on paper. How do you expect a correct mathematical proof to represent infinity?

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#82
post #21

"That’s because it’s impossible for a computer to calculate infinite values. It can get very close to seeing a singularity, but it can’t actually reach it" Why not? Is it impossible to calculate infinite values in general? I suspect not, My understanding is that a lot of calculus is in fact on how to calculate infinite values. And a computer is a universal machine, this means that while it can not calculate everythin…

> Why not?

They don't explain this very well, I think.

Take the ordinary differential equation x'(t) = x^2(t), with initial condition x(0)=1. It has the solution 1/(1-t) which blows up to infinity when t tends to 1.

If you try to solve it numerically, using, let's say Euler's method, then this is how you go about it. You pick a step size, let's say 0.1. And iterate this way: you know x(0) = 1, and you also know its derivative x'(0) = x^2(0) = 1. You assume x follows a straight line, so you get x(0.1) = 1 + 0.1 = 1.1. At the next step you add more because x'(0.1) is now 1.21, so x(0.2) = 1.1 + 0.121 = 1.221. You keep going like that.

The numbers will go bigger and bigger, but they will never be infinite. Of course, floating numbers with double precision overflow around 10^308, but if you use a multiple precision library you'll be able to keep going forever and ever.

If you make the time step smaller, the solution will be closer to the actual solution, but still, the algorithm will produce finite values at all times (until it hits overflow).

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#83

I remember my math professor at university telling me that truth in mathematics was a social construct, and that nothing was true until a social consensus had been reached between mathematicians. This struck me at the time as a very powerful statement, yet unexpected, since very much not what most people expect from mathematics. After all, it's supposed to be a field where there is such a thing as a (most of the time…

The fact that mathematics gives us power to predict events in the real world makes it independent of social consensus. If everyone in the world believes that 2+2=5, that doesn't make it less true that 2+2=4 - in the sense that I know for sure, if I take throw two rocks on a pile of two rocks, I'll get a pile of four rocks, not five rocks. I hate this sociologist view that everything depends on the social consensus. G…

You got it backwards. 1984 is possible because it's fundemental that some truths are social constructs.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where your misunderstanding comes from, but at least, you might consider you're disagreeing with an article on quanta magazine which writes up a project by experts in their field. In any case, no. The idea that a finite number of bits in a particular state "must just be infinity!!!! because the IEEE ref docs say so" is strange to say the least. The issue is to demonstrate that a given function, say f, fo…

> The issue is to demonstrate that a given function, say f, for given real-valued inputs, say x, has an output y which is not real-valued and goes to infinity. Why would the output need to be not real? There's no difficulty with saying a real-valued function has a singularity. The issue is to demonstrate that this function has a singularity at some point, yes. Simulation is a bad way to do that, though conceivably yo…

The issue with bit-patterns are, at least, they're discrete. And so cannot, eg., represent pi.

This project is about real-valued functions which are taken to describe physical reality. Almost all of physical reality has no closed-form analytical description that "traditional mathematics" can operate on. So there arent any relevant symbolic rules of inference yet invented to resolve this problem.

If you want to program a computer to perform these rules on these functions, there arent any -- hence the millenium problem. And if there were some, we wouldnt bother using a computer.

What "using a computer" here means is finding a discrete approximation to this system, searching through that discrete input space until something which looks "infinity-like" occurs in the output space.

Now, a priori, this is never going to constitute a proof of anything. Since the discrete approximation needs, independently, to be analytically shown to be reliable. And, a priori, it's likely to be highly highly unreliable.

It would be trivial to show, for example, an iterated chaotic system is sensitive to an x=pi initial state at "decimal places" that no possible physical computer could provide a discrete approximation of; and hence inferences made via this approximation would be, routinely, false. (This is, for example, why most "climate" models only predict a global mean temperature, and very little else).

So this all comes down to the need to formalise a non-discrete system in discrete terms, and worse in terms that are physically possible implement using electrical switches.

In this case, every output of the system including special designation of bit patterns is, a priori, profoundly suspect.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#85
post #7

I remember my math professor at university telling me that truth in mathematics was a social construct, and that nothing was true until a social consensus had been reached between mathematicians. This struck me at the time as a very powerful statement, yet unexpected, since very much not what most people expect from mathematics. After all, it's supposed to be a field where there is such a thing as a (most of the time…

A proof is a rhetorical device to convince others of the truth of a proposition.

[deleted]

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#86

I remember my math professor at university telling me that truth in mathematics was a social construct, and that nothing was true until a social consensus had been reached between mathematicians. This struck me at the time as a very powerful statement, yet unexpected, since very much not what most people expect from mathematics. After all, it's supposed to be a field where there is such a thing as a (most of the time…

"2 + 2 = 4"

"the Riemann zeta function has its zeros only at the negative even integers and complex numbers with real part 1/2."

Most of us conflate arithmetic with mathematics. In arithmetic, things start getting 'conceptual' as soon as we no longer can map certain measures and operations to a realizable physical construct. At that precise juncture, math becomes a semantic system and is therefore subject to social consensus.

For example, consider introducing infinity, or even zero, into 'shopkeepers' sense of numbers. Before, you could never add something to a number and end up with the same number, but now 0 + 0 = 0, and a + \infty = \infty . And to the shopkeepers' surprise, some mathematicians may even argue over it.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly is a social construct, because what tools are at my disposal to convince someone who disagrees otherwise? In that sense everything is a social construct. Apart from that, with the help of computers, it can be made absolutely precise and clear which statements follow from which axioms, and in that sense it is not a social construct at all. It also is much less cumbersome than it used to be, and will conti…

> I can sit down and prove something using a tool like Isabelle, and I will be as sure of its "truth" as I can possibly be, and it really doesn't matter what other people, mathematicians or not, think about it. That's the beauty of it. But I guess the point is that almost no-one does this. I would guess that if someone tried to formally verify every published paper out there (or even every textbook), they would uncov…

Not many do this currently, that is true. But this will change. In a hundred years every mathematician will do this. I think it will reach "mainstream" much much earlier than this, probably around 2030.

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#88
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that mathematics gives us power to predict events in the real world makes it independent of social consensus. If everyone in the world believes that 2+2=5, that doesn't make it less true that 2+2=4 - in the sense that I know for sure, if I take throw two rocks on a pile of two rocks, I'll get a pile of four rocks, not five rocks. I hate this sociologist view that everything depends on the social consensus. G…

That's actually an example of what OP was talking about. You have defined + as the operator that mimics what piles of rocks do, and defined numbers as counting rocks. That's only a tiny fraction of what math does. An interesting and useful one, and mathematicians have put a lot of work into studying basic arithmetic. They have expanded out into numerous other forms, some of which turn out to have correspondence to th…

[deleted]

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#89
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that mathematics gives us power to predict events in the real world makes it independent of social consensus. If everyone in the world believes that 2+2=5, that doesn't make it less true that 2+2=4 - in the sense that I know for sure, if I take throw two rocks on a pile of two rocks, I'll get a pile of four rocks, not five rocks. I hate this sociologist view that everything depends on the social consensus. G…

You got it backwards. 1984 is possible because it's fundemental that some truths are social constructs.

[deleted]

Re: Computer proof ‘blows up’ centuries-old fluid equations

#90

I remember my math professor at university telling me that truth in mathematics was a social construct, and that nothing was true until a social consensus had been reached between mathematicians. This struck me at the time as a very powerful statement, yet unexpected, since very much not what most people expect from mathematics. After all, it's supposed to be a field where there is such a thing as a (most of the time…

The fact that mathematics gives us power to predict events in the real world makes it independent of social consensus. If everyone in the world believes that 2+2=5, that doesn't make it less true that 2+2=4 - in the sense that I know for sure, if I take throw two rocks on a pile of two rocks, I'll get a pile of four rocks, not five rocks. I hate this sociologist view that everything depends on the social consensus. G…

> that 2+2=4 - in the sense that I know for sure, if I take throw two rocks on a pile of two rocks, I'll get a pile of four rocks, not five rocks.

That depends on if one of the rocks breaks in half as you throw it onto the rock-pile or not. And also if the resulting piece knocked off is large enough to pass your fuzzy and contextual distinction between "rock" and "pebble".

But IMHO, arithmetic such as counting numbers and 2 + 2 = 4 are not part of the natural world. If I have a rock and another rock, I can with minor effort tell them apart: they have different weight, size, shape, density, composition etc. They are each unique individual assemblages of huge numbers of atoms in distinct never-to-be-repeated arrangements. In what way are these 2 unique things "the same" ?

If I have an apple and you give me a frog, I have an apple and a frog. They're not the same. If I have apple A and you give me apple B, do I have 2 apples? I have unique apple A and unique apple B. We can pretend that they're the same if you like, but that category is in our thinking, not in the world, and we also know that we can also notice differences between them.

tl;dr the natural world is not fungible, but behaving as if it is, is a convenient abstraction for mathematics and commerce, not a property of the natural objects.

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