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Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

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Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#81
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carvana did deliveries to your home (apparently), while CarMax would deliver to their nearest lot, which might be a long way away.

I scrolled through Carvana inventory, picked a used car, purchased it, and it was delivered to my driveway like a week later. I live very far from any decent-sized car dealership. I did all this laying in bed on my phone. I have some complaints about the quality of their service, but the value prop is pretty amazing.

Did you get the real/legit title of the car signed over to you?

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can’t carry their inventory, they’ll go to another retailer through wholesale auction or direct buy, and show up for sale elsewhere at market prices. Carvana even owns an auto auction chain, which they bought to secure access to inventory but now might use to preferentially liquidate.

If Carvana isn't moving cars fast enough and is trying to liquidate inventory, just who is going to buy them?

Every other used car dealer will buy them. The auto auction market is highly liquid. Buyers have money.

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#83
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept is great but I never really saw the point of Carvana when CarMax already exists. Unless your plan is just to leverage easy capital to push CarMax and traditional dealers out of the business like Uber and taxis.

Carvana came to my house and picked up the car I was selling. It was all done in a few minutes. I didn't have to take any pictures, just describe it on the web form, and sign some papers when they showed up.

Have you looked to see if they followed through with the paperwork with the state to ensure the state no longer thinks you own the car? One of the complaints I've seen is that they are woefully behind in areas like this so that the new "owner" isn't really the legal owner because some paperwork hadn't been completed by Carvana

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#84
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept is great but I never really saw the point of Carvana when CarMax already exists. Unless your plan is just to leverage easy capital to push CarMax and traditional dealers out of the business like Uber and taxis.

Carvana came to my house and picked up the car I was selling. It was all done in a few minutes. I didn't have to take any pictures, just describe it on the web form, and sign some papers when they showed up.

I am sure it was but that is a ridiculous business model when the secret sauce of the whole operation is economy of scale along with no ability to improve margins much.

I am sure they could cut the lawn and feed the dog while there also but none of this sounds profitable in the long term.

It almost sounds like we were in a giant bubble...

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#85

I've purchased 2 vehicles through Carvana, and honestly the process was fantastic. I feel I got a fair deal on both vehicles, the quality was good, and everything as advertised. I did all the paperwork online and when I showed up to pick the car up was in and out in just a few minutes. The only problem I had was that the delivery tower didn't work when I dropped the coin in both times. First time the car was for me a…

This is completely anecdotal but there's been a couple of times during COVID when I was stuck at a light next to a Caravana truck on it's way to drop off a car and I noticed what appeared to be non-trivial issues underneath the car. I just don't get how people can buy a used car without seeing it or sending over a professional to look at it first.

Is there any way to actually know that was a car out for delivery, and not being picked up? When you sell your vehicle to Carvana they come to you with the same flatbed truck and haul it away.

Not that I don't doubt the cars they sell are sometimes (often?) trash. I sold a 370z to them this summer and the amount of due diligence they performed before paying was practically nil. They didn't even open the hood, or drive it more than the half mile around the block staying Great way to sell your car, awful way to buy your car.

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#86
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pandemic quality builds of large, expensive internal combustion vehicles at a time of soaring gas prices, limited parts, and rising labor costs. Parting them out might make sense.

Is that a joke? Parting out cars is very labor intensive and only makes economic sense in limited circumstances. Outside the HN bubble, most US consumers still want internal combustion vehicles regardless of gas prices.

Just a tongue in cheek way of suggesting the vehicles are worth less than the sum of their parts.

I don't know that there's a HN bubble. Devotion to ideology seems to be kept in check by people known for their work who'll occasionally come down off the mountain.

what's the difference between a bubble and a point of view? Is my BoF meetup biased because we're sticking to certain subjects?

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#87
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carvana came to my house and picked up the car I was selling. It was all done in a few minutes. I didn't have to take any pictures, just describe it on the web form, and sign some papers when they showed up.

Have you looked to see if they followed through with the paperwork with the state to ensure the state no longer thinks you own the car? One of the complaints I've seen is that they are woefully behind in areas like this so that the new "owner" isn't really the legal owner because some paperwork hadn't been completed by Carvana

I filed it myself in California. Doesn't matter who I'm selling to, I file the release of liability immediately. I don't want to pay for someone else's parking tickets or other much worse crimes.

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#88
post #3

This is less of a tech layoff story and more of an overlevered business with crashing asset values against very difficult short term liabilities and no ability to refinance in a rising interest rate market. The real question for normal people is if Carvana sells off a huge chunk of its inventory at fire-sale prices, does that accelerate the crash in used car prices? Is March of 2023 the right time to pick up that fun…

There isn’t going to be a fire sale. Their margins per car are positive and have only contracted about 20%. The margin isn’t enough to sustain their business, but the cars are priced in line with the market. Worst case, they would restructure in chapter 11 and continue to operate retail as normal.

> Worst case, they would restructure in chapter 11 and continue to operate retail as normal.

The market need that Carvana met was reducing the hurdles of buying a used car for those people who generally don't buy used cars. The biggest hurdle is financing. The second biggest is fear of getting a lemon, which is why they have those inspections, guarantees of service and taking the vehicle back. The last hurdle was doing this from the convenience of your home and not dealing with car salesmen. All of these were things that could be done by others, but with more frictions, and Carvana was lowering the bar.

In exchange for adding this value, they are able to charge a premium. That premium is not coming from expert selection of car inventory or buying the cars for less.

Unfortunately the cost that carvana spends to provide these value adds exceeds the premium they can charge. That was true before their margins contracted, and it's even more true now. In fact, carvana is being squeezed like a sandwhich, as as their funding costs are going up even as the willingness of buyers to pay a premium for carvana services are declining, causing the gross margins to go down.

Carvana's biggest cost is rising interest rates. They literally borrowed at 10% in order to extend 5% auto loans to their customers. This is the problem they are in. And there's nothing they can do about their funding costs - investors charge them a premium because it's not clear that carvana is going to be around. Declaring chapter 11 is not going to give them a lower cost of capital, so they will need to get rid of their fleet somehow.

Now whether the fleet goes for a big discount to end consumers has nothing to do with Carvana, because odds are some middleman will buy the fleet, rather than having them do a going out of business sale. We are talking about billions in inventory - an alarming accumulation of inventory:

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CVNA/carvana/inven...

At a higher interest rate, you need to move inventory more quickly, because you are effectively taking out a loan when you buy the car and pay for a warehouse in which it sits and does nothing. The cost of carrying that inventory is higher when rates go up. It is higher for carvana and for whomever buys the fleet. This applies to all inventory everywhere.

So, don't look for special discounts from carvana, look in general for falling prices in the sector as a whole, as dealers and manufacturers continue to get squeezed by the twin rocks of rising interest rates and falling demand.

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely anecdotal but there's been a couple of times during COVID when I was stuck at a light next to a Caravana truck on it's way to drop off a car and I noticed what appeared to be non-trivial issues underneath the car. I just don't get how people can buy a used car without seeing it or sending over a professional to look at it first.

I bought a Nissan Rogue two months ago with Carvana - it had a 7 day no questions refund, free repairs for a year, and we got to test drive for 30 mins before they signed it over to us. Overall I felt very comfortable with this purchase, much more than a small local dealership or even worse a stranger on some FB group.

30 minutes and 7 days is not a lot of time to find out if something is wrong.

Re: Carvana to cut 1,500 jobs as online auto dealer’s troubles mount

#90
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn’t going to be a fire sale. Their margins per car are positive and have only contracted about 20%. The margin isn’t enough to sustain their business, but the cars are priced in line with the market. Worst case, they would restructure in chapter 11 and continue to operate retail as normal.

> Worst case, they would restructure in chapter 11 and continue to operate retail as normal. The market need that Carvana met was reducing the hurdles of buying a used car for those people who generally don't buy used cars. The biggest hurdle is financing. The second biggest is fear of getting a lemon, which is why they have those inspections, guarantees of service and taking the vehicle back. The last hurdle was doi…

Well summarized!
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