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Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

trevorklee.substack.com

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Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#111
I noticed a lot of the same things when my dad was in the ICU. Some additional thoughts:

1. "Almost every patient has delusions and nightmares" I personally felt "off" when visiting my father. The sounds, smells, lights and constant buzz of activity all contributed to a feeling of being in a surreal dreamworld. Lack of sleep contributes. I can't imagine what my father experiencing.

2. Food was HORRIBLE. One meal was a low quality hamburger on a plain, white bread bun with a slice of "american cheese", fries, iceberg lettuce salad with a couple of slices of cucumber and a single slice of tomato, a container of apple sauce and glass of milk. Lots of salad dressing and ketchup. They wouldn't let us bring better food into the ICU and my dad didn't want to "make waves".

3. Family is critical. My father got better care because I, or my brother, was there to act on his behalf. Having obnoxious family members is worse than having none from what I saw.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#112
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a hospital, and occasionally in ICUs. You're wrong. Most workers are very much jaded, but they do care. Problem is, the system crushes you to death if you don't set pretty harsh limits to protect yourself. In a lot of cases, that means de-humanizing your work, put your feelings aside and work like a machine. Good little machines are just what management wants, right? Now higher management... wow, those peop…

What percent of patients have a medical need to be woken up every few hours then?

You'd be surprised to see what happens to staff going against waking up patients all night. You get the "dangerous sloth" sticker on your forehead real quick on the morning grand rounds.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#113

The solution to difficulty booking doctors isn't to pontificate on how to allocate their time, the solution to difficulty booking doctors is to make more doctors. There's lots of levers that could be pulled in the US. Cut down on undergraduate requirements, incentivize large health systems to fund more training (people like to complain that the federal government only funds a fixed number of residency slots, as if a…

Just getting accepted to a medical school is pretty hard unless you’re amazing/very good at the tests. Had a cousin and a friend (both I would characterize as smart and hard working) take several years after undergrad and eventually “settle” for physicians assistant schools.

I personally want my doctors to be amazing and very good. For now tests are a fair proxy, it's the 8 years that seem ridiculous, esp when looking at non US countries.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#114

The solution to difficulty booking doctors isn't to pontificate on how to allocate their time, the solution to difficulty booking doctors is to make more doctors. There's lots of levers that could be pulled in the US. Cut down on undergraduate requirements, incentivize large health systems to fund more training (people like to complain that the federal government only funds a fixed number of residency slots, as if a…

On why there are too few doctors:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/why-does-t...

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#115

I don't have much personal experience with hospitals, but there's a trend I've noticed across several articles now where the medical system is characterized by an unpredictable and frequent alternation between extreme competence and extreme incompetence. The author's dad was being seen by a variety of highly trained specialists all working to treat him, but "people need to sleep" seems to be a recent discovery in the…

I don’t think the problem is cost cutting. I think the problem is just the same problem that every human enterprise has. Most people just don’t give a shit outside thier immediate responsibility. Looking at the global view and actually making changes that require persuading other people is a hard and often thankless task. Many people who do give a shit get this crushed out of them early in their career by the negativ…

Cost cutting is definitely to blame for how understaffed hospitals are. Then Covid happened and it got even worse. It's definitely not all due to Covid though. Even the "not-for-profit" medical group in my area has been pushing doctors and PAs to take more and more patients, well past what they're comfortable with. Nursing staff has been cut down to nothing compared to 10 years ago. Wages haven't gone up to match the increase in workload.

Again, this started before Covid, the pandemic just highlighted how much these cuts screwed over both healthcare professionals and patients.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#116
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but curiosity and creativity are certainly the n°1 enemy of the patient, especially in ICU settings. Curiosity and creativity are grandpa's medicine, and a total antithesis to evidence-based modern medicine, that attempts (and largely fails) to be an application of science instead of the whims of the decision-makers. What you should want is curious and creative _researchers_, but precise and totally unimagi…

If medical treatment was actually as formulaic and fully-solved as you imply, we wouldn't take the best students of every generation and make them spend ten years training to become doctors. We'd just have nurses, checklists, and diagnosis flowcharts.

I'm precisely not implying that medicine is currently "fully solved". I'm implying that we should strive to gather more information, synthesize it better and study how to make it useful.

As a clinician, I'd say yes to a bicycle for the mind. But currently, my job is already plenty full with worrying about applying what's known in a correct manner without seeking to break new ground while treating patients, which would be very dangerous and given the odds of success, very stupid. What I'm implying is that the general public has a completely skewed view about what really kills patients in the ICU: mundane infections and "medical errors", which are not really errors at all but in a large majority of cases failures and complications of usual procedures.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#117
post #60

These threads always have lots of people jumping on doctors and their decisions/callousness/lack-of-reason/etc.etc.etc. My wife is a physician (OBGYN) at a major city hospital that primarily serves a very poor population. I'd like to share her schedule, and see if you think what kind of care you could perform under these circumstances: Monday - Friday - Wake up at 4:30 AM - Get to hospital by 5AM to start rounding on…

And she is not a resident or in a training/certification program?

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#118
post #5

It's politically toxic to discuss but a ton of money goes to keeping people not dead (not really alive either). You could give a lot more people medicare/medicaid if we let a 90 yr old with dementia/diatebetes/etc. pass with dignity.

This is an oft-repeated piece of received wisdom that is empirically untrue. https://www.statnews.com/2018/06/28/end-of-life-health-spend...

Wow: just sample bias! We need to also look at the old people who had expensive care and survived (95% of costs in that article). Money does gets spent on hospital care just before death (5%), but predicting how to avoid “wasting” that money is hard.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#119
Surgeon here. I'm about more surprised by the discussion here than from the article itself.

> 2. There are many consults, but the ICU attending is king (or queen). There's a concept called doctor's autonomy. The attending physician has the primary "guard" of the patient care, so unless dynamics of power, consultations are more like suggestions than law. So, the final care is generally dependent on the attending physician, for good or worse, be lack of confidence in the other physician be his perceived better understanding of the disease.

> 3. Sometimes nurses are the footsoldiers of the ICU regent, and sometimes they’re governors. I saw examples of nursing saving and harming patients while disobeying orders. They have a co-participation in care and generally have studied to a degree that enable them to make some decisions.

> 4. Everyone agrees that sleep is important, but nobody has any idea beyond that. We have decades worth of knowledge, but de facto we don't have a systematized and validated way of sleep care. We have studies on daytime nap and on sedatives effects on quality of sleep, but no full truths. Some day we'll have a better care.

> 6. The ICU staff is literally constantly changing. The institutional memory are the patient medical records. If the Haloperidol adverse reaction was not noted in there, it was a fault of the care providers. Sometimes nurses chooses to ignore, and the repercussions should be analyzed case by case. The cited whiteboard worked as an "expanded" medical record, as registering that trigger could be seen as too tangential to a disease focused medical record.

> 7. The ICU is great at managing acute issues, and struggles a lot more with longterm issues. Long term issues are not the concern of ICU. If it's not critical, the care can and maybe should be postponed until better. Of course, we have to be prudent, for example bowel function could be potentially urgent if not intervened early. Frequently I could and should not treat patients depression on an ICU, but it's reasonable to treat intrusive symptoms of early post-traumatic stress disorder, for example.

Free T4 is the method used to assess thyroid hormone supplementation, not TSH. Delirium, delusions, illusions and hallucinations have a non-pharmacological and pharmacological treatment, and antipsychotics are not the only ones used.

> 8. The ICU is a good place to not die, but a bad place to recover. The ICU is meant to give patients a better opportunity to not be critical anymore. When they're not critical, we start to deescalate our measures, such as monitoring and IV lines, for example.

People are different, and so are doctors. As the good, so the bad sprouts everywhere.

Re: Things I've noticed while visiting the ICU

#120

As a counterpoint, my experience with my dad being in the ICU was great. They saved his life a couple times when he needed to have his heart paddle-started. And they managed to stabilize him and let him get sleep as much as possible so he could be transitioned out of the ICU. I never once got the impression that anyone was incompetent, or that they were having trouble remembering strategies, reactions to medicine, et…

I wonder if there's a selection effect where on the one hand particularly demanding people avoid Kaiser because of the somewhat impersonal policies and practices, and on the other hand as an HMO Kaiser enjoys a much lower percentage of indigent and high-risk patients, which altogether permit Kaiser to build a system around the 80% instead of the 20%.
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