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The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

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Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#111

Post by sleepymoose »

drcross wrote: post #33
darkteflon wrote: post #12

Utterly ridiculous to allow TikTok to continue to operate in the current geopolitical climate. China is a surveillance autocracy and has been engaged in adversarial conduct against the West for years - including extensive psyops. Shut it down, yesterday. Build a local clone so that people can get their fix or whatever. China sure as shit doesn’t allow its citizens to cough up their personal information for algorithmi…

Trump tried this and had to back down due to it being an unpopular decision. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/06/politics/trump-executive-...

Anything Trump did was an unpopular decision. If this starts to move forward under the current administration people would be more receptive to it purely based on the fact that it's the other side now.

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#112

Post by sgu999 »

krageon wrote: post #82
pjc50 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sigh can we not have targeted-by-nationality bans and instead have .. rules? If Tiktok the app is performing surveillance, ban surveillance by apps . All of them. Or make it technically impossible to escape its little sandbox, and let people have their entertainment.

We can't have rules that aren't governed by nationality, because the US basically only sees nationality. TikTok is called "an issue" not because of what it does, why it does it or how it does it. It is called that because of who is doing it. As such, we can expect all this racism couched in careful political language to continue and keep continuing.

Not everything is rooted in racism... If Bytedance was a company from any of the Asian allies to the US, it would likely not be much of an issue.

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#113

Post by Tenoke »

lm28469 wrote: post #88
Tenoke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obviously entertainment. It could additionally be other things, how Top Gun is both entertainment and propaganda or bar drinking is both entertainment and has health risks. The math might come to the risks being higher than the benefits but pretending people aren't entertained by it ironically suggests that you might be more radicalized or brainwashed than TikTok users supposedly are.

> It's obviously entertainment. it's not obvious to me at all, in France it's used by islamist organisations to push for communitarianism and separatism, I don't call that entertainment https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/de-youtube-a-tiktok... https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/111122/ados-en-abaya... https://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2019/10/23/de-la-propa...

By that logic paintings aren't art because the Soviets made some for propaganda purposes.

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#115

Post by rvz »

hnrodey wrote: post #65

Trump: TikTok is a national security threat! America: XENOPHOBE! Biden: TikTok is a national security threat. America: SHUT IT DOWN!

This is true. However:

This investigation into TikTok happened before Trump wanted the ban. [0][1] But the media just brainwashed a narrative to people who don't research because it came from his mouth at the ridiculous height of 2020.

Just look at the TikTok fanatics back then defending and being in denial here after Trump wanted it banned on the same national security grounds [2]. Two years later under Biden, NOW is the time they also want to ban it?

Lots of people have just been manipulated by the media and the news again for political gain, as expected. I brought that up at the time and was immediately flagged.

Perhaps it's because it was true, against the herd.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-cfius-exclusive-id...

[1] https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/press-releases/cotton-sch...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24611558

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24612012

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#116

Post by throwaway4aday »

Tenoke wrote: post #23
lm28469 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The default should be not to ban entertainment It's only entertainment if you're completely blind. They're using our tolerance as a weakness, while themselves having absolutely 0 tolerance for western bs/propaganda in their home country This is next level "turning the other cheek"

It's obviously entertainment. It could additionally be other things, how Top Gun is both entertainment and propaganda or bar drinking is both entertainment and has health risks. The math might come to the risks being higher than the benefits but pretending people aren't entertained by it ironically suggests that you might be more radicalized or brainwashed than TikTok users supposedly are.

> It's obviously entertainment. It could additionally be other things, how Top Gun is both entertainment and propaganda

I think you're proving the point here. Yes media can be more than one thing or serve more than one purpose. A good question to ask is how much is it entertainment vs how much is it propaganda? I'd wager that there is a lot of content on TikTok that is mostly propaganda, even if it isn't produced by state actors. Social media has given rise to a new form of propaganda that is self-perpetuating, individuals can gain social clout by repeating the propaganda they hear and adding their own flavor to it (even if they don't add content). Maybe call it Performative Propaganda. Social media algorithms help match up the people producing to those who are susceptible to consuming it and provide a selection mechanism to promote the most effective content. This is all that's needed for "memes" (in the original sense) to behave like their namesake genes and undergo rapid reproduction and evolution.

Is any of this state controlled? Maybe a small amount but I would ask does it even need to be state controlled? There's enough folie à deux out there in the world, all you need to do is provide an easy way for it to spread and you could severely damage other cultures.

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#117

Post by sgu999 »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #100
pjc50 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sigh can we not have targeted-by-nationality bans and instead have .. rules? If Tiktok the app is performing surveillance, ban surveillance by apps . All of them. Or make it technically impossible to escape its little sandbox, and let people have their entertainment.

> can we not have targeted-by-nationality bans and instead have .. rules? Let's have reciprocal rules. If country X bans US social media then why shouldn't the US do the same?

I've never understood either. This should be de facto for any market...

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#118

Post by moneytide1 »

Tenoke wrote: post #23
lm28469 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The default should be not to ban entertainment It's only entertainment if you're completely blind. They're using our tolerance as a weakness, while themselves having absolutely 0 tolerance for western bs/propaganda in their home country This is next level "turning the other cheek"

It's obviously entertainment. It could additionally be other things, how Top Gun is both entertainment and propaganda or bar drinking is both entertainment and has health risks. The math might come to the risks being higher than the benefits but pretending people aren't entertained by it ironically suggests that you might be more radicalized or brainwashed than TikTok users supposedly are.

> how Top Gun is both entertainment and propaganda

The recent conscription of Mr. Cruise to showcase air superiority is an insight tactically granted at the behest of American government as a reaction to international upheaval. A reminder. After the success of "Star Wars", Mr. Ford fulfilled a similar role in a film about infrastructure sabotage (hydroelectric dam and bridge - Force 10 from Navarone).

I always appreciated the Top Gun franchise because there are many scenes showing a large group of people enjoying each other's company.

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#119

Post by piva00 »

plaguepilled wrote: post #34
weego wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a surveillance pseudo-democracy. The problem here being this time they can't insert themselves into the surveillance pipeline. They're not better or worse (unless you're fine with your own Govt surveilling you but not another state), just not the status quo.

There is a very relevant difference between a country which affords you civil rights surveiling you, and a country that you are not a civilian of surveiling you. Its not just about being "fine" with one surveiling you and not the other.

So many argument threads on HN (and other discussion platforms) could be avoided if people understood that level and degree of issues matter.

It seems to always start from blanket statements or false dichotomies where "if your country does X why are you not ok with C country doing X?" and completely ignoring the nuances in between.

Re: The FBI alleges TikTok poses national security concerns

#120

Post by pbhjpbhj »

darkteflon wrote: post #90
pjc50 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sigh can we not have targeted-by-nationality bans and instead have .. rules? If Tiktok the app is performing surveillance, ban surveillance by apps . All of them. Or make it technically impossible to escape its little sandbox, and let people have their entertainment.

We can - and should - have robust privacy laws at home. We should also not roll over for our adversaries. China under Xi Jinping is, without a doubt, adversarial, and the risks are existential.

You need to specify who "our" is there. USA's upper echelons, presumably?

The risks are existential to ...? Again presumably you mean those who thrive under USA-centric capitalism? You think the CCP are planning a forced takeover of Western democracy?

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