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India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

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Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#91

Post by PartiallyTyped »

AdamN wrote: post #81

What is the next physical connector standard after USB-C? Is there one on the roadmap that is likely to happen or is USB-C "The End of History" when it comes to connectors?

Part of EU's decision is to repeatedly evaluate the standards every N or so years; where N I don't think anyone has any complains about the physical connector, the issue is the specs for USB. USB-C looks to be the end of history though for smart phones, at least for apple. Apple said they will comply, but never confirmed inclusion of USB-C, this is important as there is a clause that allows mobile devices without a port to be compliant.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#92

Post by foepys »

crote wrote: post #49
mlindner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandating standards by laws isn't progress. It holds the future back. This and the EU will be looked back on as a disastrous piece of legislation in the future. It's amazing how nearsighted these governments are being. Standards are universally created by industry organically, not created by governments.

The EU law explicitly includes a provision that it must be reviewed every few years to keep up with industry progress. It previously mandated Micro USB, and now it mandates USB-C. It's not a law which says "the industry must use connector X", but a law which says "the industry must standardize on a single connector" - which is exactly what you seem to be asking for.

It never mandated Micro USB, that's why they are stepping it up because the recommendation to use Micro USB didn't catch on.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#93

Post by input_sh »

noselasd wrote: post #55
input_sh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Micro USB was the EU standard, you already lived through that. That's why every Android and gadget out there used it, as opposed to 50 other connectors before that on feature phones. Apple found a loophole around it by shipping a dongle with iPhones. With the update to the standard that loophole was closed.

While it was a EU standard, was it also an EU law ? If so, is the law removed, or is everyone breaking that law these days(As I don't see any phones being sold with micro-usb) but noone cares ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply#H...

To summarize it mostly from memory, it was a voluntary agreement between 10(ish) phone manufacturers (Apple included) and the EU. It had an expiry date, and it was renewed on a yearly basis 2009-2014.

In 2014 EU figured out this was working fine, and allowed itself up until 2020 to make it obligatory (as opposed to voluntary). They also took this time to figure out categories of products that should be impacted (headphones, cameras, those sorts of things). Then in 2021 they made changes to the directive, setting Type C as the standard.

EU directives are not exactly laws. Instead, it's a way of telling member states what they should be implementing in their own national laws. Member states then have two years to do the actual implementation. So, late 2023 member states will all have slightly different laws, but basically all saying the same (Type C is the only connector allowed, users must have an option to exclude a charger from their purchase). Not quite the same as EU-wide law, but not quite different in practice.

So what will happen after Type C is that the directive is going to be changed, and then there's again going to be a few in-between years. Probably somewhere in between 2 (deadline for member states to implement those changes) and 9 years (how long it took this time around, 2014-2023), because next time around they won't have to spend seven years figuring out details.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#94

Post by Acinyx »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #80
pretext-1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law allows newer standards to be used. USB-C is just the required minimum. The goal of the law is to ensure standardization of connectors is happening, not to enforce USB-C forever. If "no laws" would be the solution, Apple would have switched to USB-C already. Unfortunately they didn't, proving the law was necessary.

> law allows newer standards to be used. USB-C is just the required minimum Nobody is going to put two ports on a phome. Required minimum is the legislated maximum for physical interfaces.

I don't think you understand: It has to be USB-C or better. So if USB-D (or a worse name knowing the consortium) comes out, the idea behind the law is that it should also be allowed _instead_ of a USB-C port.

IANAL though, so I am unsure how well they legally described that requirement.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#95

Post by JumpCrisscross »

AdamN wrote: post #81

What is the next physical connector standard after USB-C? Is there one on the roadmap that is likely to happen or is USB-C "The End of History" when it comes to connectors?

> What is the next physical connector standard after USB-C?

The obvious answer to such legislation is none (i.e. wireless only).

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#96

Post by PartiallyTyped »

DocTomoe wrote: post #83
AdamN wrote: post #81

What is the next physical connector standard after USB-C? Is there one on the roadmap that is likely to happen or is USB-C "The End of History" when it comes to connectors?

With this kind of legislation, why would anyone invest in creating a connector they cannot market? This pretty much enforces an "end of history" kind of USB-c connector standard. I can see things moving more to the wireless realm (Qi for loading, WiFi/Bluetooth/LoRa for data) after this.

EU's legislation is only for battery charged mobile devices and accessories, not laptops or anything beyond tablets. EU also considers every few years different connectors.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#97

Post by dahfizz »

crote wrote: post #82
dahfizz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong. The EU issued an MoU and a charging standard which was voluntary . It was nothing more than them asking nicely to please use Micro-B. This is a law . It's completely different. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

True, it wasn't legally required - I should have been more careful with that phrasing - but the signatories had a market share of over 80%. It was well-understood that they would be legally forced to if they did not voluntarily comply - which makes the "voluntary" part a bit moot.

> It was well-understood that they would be legally forced to if they did not voluntarily comply - which makes the "voluntary" part a bit moot.

Except, that is not true at all. Every single manufacturer moved to a new, better plug when it became available and faced no repercussions. That is no longer possible.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#98

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Acinyx wrote: post #94
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> law allows newer standards to be used. USB-C is just the required minimum Nobody is going to put two ports on a phome. Required minimum is the legislated maximum for physical interfaces.

I don't think you understand: It has to be USB-C or better. So if USB-D (or a worse name knowing the consortium) comes out, the idea behind the law is that it should also be allowed _instead_ of a USB-C port. IANAL though, so I am unsure how well they legally described that requirement.

> the idea behind the law is that it should also be allowed _instead_ of a USB-C port

Indian courts are notoriously inefficient. “Better” would take a decade to define through case law. Anyone who can afford that is better served removing physical ports.

In any case, I see no evidence of this in current releases [1].

[1] https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1876583

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#99

Post by japanuspus »

andybak wrote: post #8

I'm sure I'm not the first person to raise this concern but when tech improves to the point where there's a better option to USB C (or USB C is holding back other advances), are we going to have to wait for legislation to catch up before we can adopt it?

By the same token, standardized power outlets would be an affront to the free market and an impediment to progress.

One example of progress on power outlets I know of is Denmark: Here the non-grounded plug has been compatible with Schuko outlets as used in most of the rest of Northern Europe, and Schuko connectors will fit in the outlets without ground connection.

Since most appliances come with Schuko plugs, a decision has been made for new installations to use the Schuko outlet, allowing a gradual transition to the Schuko standard.

Re: India follows EU's example in requiring USB-C charging for smart devices

#100

Post by dahfizz »

fundatus wrote: post #87
dahfizz wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is often repeated, but wrong. The EU issued a Memorandum of Understanding asking phone manufacturers to use micro B. MoU are not laws, they have no force behind them. Micro B was never required or mandated. It was literally the EU saying "hey guys, please use micro-B on your phone" (with an implicit threat that actual legislation may follow if you don't). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_sup…

Yeah, but the EU said back then: "You either find a common standard, or we're gonna legislate." Companies didn't want legislation, so most of them complied.

Yeah, that's what makes me so concerned! By the time the EU actually got around to making the laws they intended, the USB standards had completely evolved. This process has taken well over a decade.

It wasn't so bad last time around because manufacturers could upgrade from micro-B to USB-C without issue. Now they cannot legally upgrade.

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