Nerds and Male Privilege • Hacker News Board

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#181

Post by jcnnghm » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #153

jcnnghm wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? For example, while women may be asked to smile by random people (44), they are murdered by random people far less often than men, representing only 21% of victims. Or, while females spend more time grooming than men (27), they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by mothers who do not like the way they look. There can be some t…

> they are murdered by random people far less often than men, representing only 21% of victims. Murder is an incredibly rare occurrence in most countries and social environments. On the other hand, women are a huge majority among rape victims, and this is not exceptional: 5 to 10% of all women are sexually abused at some point (depends upon the country, again). > Perhaps the focus of all these stupid gender articles…

Murder is an incredibly rare occurrence in most countries and social environments. On the other hand, women are a huge majority among rape victims, and this is not exceptional: 5 to 10% of all women are sexually abused at some point (depends upon the country, again).

Rape makes up only 6% of violent crimes, and men are much more commonly the victim of violent crimes than women. In fact, excluding rape, as the severity of violent crimes increase, so does the probability that the victim is male.

And couldn't I also say that, while rape is relatively rare, men are over twice as likely to be the victim of severe physical domestic violence (the ratio of murder to rape and rape to severe physical domestic violence is the same). Or that perpetration rates for physical violence as a whole are significantly higher for women than men.

I personally think that these are all bogus arguments because they trivialize rape. At the same time, trivializing murder is no better than trivializing rape, unless you believe that men are expendable.

Perhaps the focus of people like you should be to think about your attitude, just like this article conveniently talked about? Your arrogance and close-mindedness are astounding. Oh, before you ask, I'm a white, straight male too.

Nice ad hominem.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#182

Post by philwelch » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

zasz wrote: post #172

makomk wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, stuff like the causes of the salary gap, stereotype threat, and being expected to give up contact with your kids to be the one raising money to bring them up affect most adult men for most of their lives. (There's support out there for heterosexual men giving up their careers to raise kids but only so long as this decision is made by the kids' mother based on what benefits her personally.) The wage…

Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids. That sounds worse to me. ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/18616558/ns/today-books/t/why-... ) Also, women are actively punished for asking for more money, or being aggressive:…

> they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children

Unless mommy divorces them and takes their kids away, at which point they can have their career, and they can pay for the kids, but they can't actually spend much time with them.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#183

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

cemery wrote: post #114

sliverstorm wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you want me to do? "Feel bad about yourself" is usually my takeaway.

I used to think this and it's not true. The takeaway is to when you interact with people think about what your interaction is doing to the other person, on many levels. Feeling bad is A) crappy and B) not productive. Whatever you do when you read an article like this is you shouldn't feel bad about being male, and you shouldn't feel bad about the fact that you are a privileged class. You should recognize the ways tha…

[deleted]

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#184

Post by wanorris » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:06 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #144

slurgfest wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I'm not sure - because women talking openly about male privilege might find agreement from some quarters but ridicule or worse from other quarters. This is like saying that black people have the privilege of talking about race in the US, but whites don't. That might have some truth to it, but overall it's a point-missing half-truth, since black people who talk about that kind of thing are often treated as "angry…

Personally I don't find it problematic to talk about female privilege at all. I think one has to be careful (just as women have to be careful talking about male privilege) but there are areas where it is so blatant and damaging that it must be talked about, particularly in areas of domestic violence. When I was just out of college, I was (as a male) the victim of some pretty intense domestic violence several times a…

There is more and more work being done in social justice circles now to degender the assumptions in discussions about rape and domestic violence. Many members of earlier generations of feminists found it easy to dismiss talk about problems like domestic violence that affected heterosexual men as unimportant, which is obviously unfortunate. But as gay, lesbian, and transgender people gain visibility within the social justice community, it becomes more obvious that this is based on gender essentialist, heterosexist assumptions that are simply not valid.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that most resources for rape and domestic violence are geared toward women. This is a problem not only for straight men, for for gay men and transgender people as well. There's a lot more work that has to be done in this area, and if you feel strongly abut it, I would strongly encourage you to get involved.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#185

Post by philwelch » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:07 PM UTC

bermanoid wrote: post #135

mayanksinghal wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. > 2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. I remember a discussion on HN where many of the comments have said that the best way to bring women into the industry is to…

I remember a discussion on HN where many of the comments have said that the best way to bring women into the industry is to bring women into the industry. Quite true, I definitely agree to it. I don't know that I'm so sure. Most other professional industries were, at one point, just as lopsidedly male as tech is these days. But as society lifted the more explicit barriers and it became common for women to pursue prof…

I would look at how many women are in STEM fields in, say, Europe. Because if it's an American problem, then maybe it's because in America, STEM fields are low-status. Not as low-status as garbage collectors, but low-status enough that women don't aspire to break into those fields the way they've broken into law and medicine.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#186

Post by wpietri » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:11 PM UTC

sqrt17 wrote: post #171

wpietri wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some geeks certainly deny the sexism -- he gives an example of one -- so I think an article on male privilege has to start out there. I also think trauma can work both ways. My abuse for being a nerd didn't teach me that women were bad, it taught me that being mistreated for being different is bad. Ergo my hatred of sexist behavior in my industry. More generally trauma can explain bad behavior, but I don't think it e…

> Some geeks certainly deny the sexism -- he gives an example of one -- so I think an article on male privilege has to start out there. How is sexism a privilege? Sexism may be a bias, or as the grandparent hypothesizes, a lack of empathy; Privilege may arise as a result of these biases (just as much as it would arise as a result of any other bias, against rural people, people with non-majority ethnicity, against una…

Privilege here is a technical term.

Other people's sexism yields my male privilege. And yes, this article is definitely about male privilege.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#187

Post by georgemcbay » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:26 PM UTC

wanorris wrote: post #55

Shenglong wrote: post #29

[warning: slightly offensive] I really would hope, that women in video games are in fact judged by how attractive they are. I certainly wouldn't want an obese woman superhero saving the world, just as I'm sure the gay males and the straight women wouldn't want to see a tub of lard (excuse my language) in a male, who is supposed to epitomize the superhuman virtues that we lack. Yeah, it's shit easy to wave a finger an…

> Give most gaming girls a choice, and they will CHOOSE to dress their characters in slutty--or as they call it, "sexy cute"--clothing. I think there's a subtle point being lost here. Female characters designed to appeal to women look different than female characters designed to appeal to men. For example, if the characters are designed to appeal to women, you can pretty much guarantee that they will not look like th…

"For example, if the characters are designed to appeal to women, you can pretty much guarantee that they will not look like they have had basketballs implanted in their chests."

I am not a woman.

I live in Southern California.

I see quite a large population of women here who choose to implant what appear to be basketballs in their own chests.

One could debate whether or not this is due to a negative society influence or whatever other factors, but clearly there is a segment of the female population that embraces the "basketballs on the chest" look. Enough so that they choose to participate in the look personally.

So be careful speaking for an entire group, especially when it is as big of a group as "women".

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#188

Post by jcnnghm » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:29 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #165

jcnnghm wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it be trivial to create a female privilege checklist? For example, while women may be asked to smile by random people (44), they are murdered by random people far less often than men, representing only 21% of victims. Or, while females spend more time grooming than men (27), they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by mothers who do not like the way they look. There can be some t…

they are much less likely to have their genitals mutilated as infants by fathers who do not like the way they look. Female genital mutilation happens as well in some countries. And the majority of cases it's much worse than the male equivalent. FGM often results in all or part of the clitoris being removed. That would be like all or part of the glans of a penis being removed. (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_…

And the majority of cases it's much worse than the male equivalent. FGM often results in all or part of the clitoris being removed.

As a circumcised male, I generally believe that FGM is much worse than the male equivalent, even though it is much more rare in developed countries. At the same time, I wonder if the facts that most circumcised men have no basis for comparison, and that the procedure is so common, colors that bias. The foreskin has over 20,000 nerve endings whereas the clitoris only has about 8,000. Men that have undergone foreskin restorations sometimes report vastly improved sexual sensitivity and much more intense orgasms.

As I said, I believe the female variant is much worse, but it does cause me to pause and consider that this may be caused by female privilege. I cannot help but wonder if my belief that there would be outrage if roles were reversed is valid.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#189

Post by da_dude4242 » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:33 PM UTC

zasz wrote: post #172

makomk wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, stuff like the causes of the salary gap, stereotype threat, and being expected to give up contact with your kids to be the one raising money to bring them up affect most adult men for most of their lives. (There's support out there for heterosexual men giving up their careers to raise kids but only so long as this decision is made by the kids' mother based on what benefits her personally.) The wage…

Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids. That sounds worse to me. ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/18616558/ns/today-books/t/why-... ) Also, women are actively punished for asking for more money, or being aggressive:…

>Sure, it's sad men don't get to spend as much time with the kids, but the point is, they can have their career, and have at least some time with their children. Women very often just don't have that choice, and are forced to take just the kids.

That's false.

A) It is a woman's choice to have children.

B) The "Best Interest Clause" creates a power differential over the children. If she wants to work full-time she can, If she wants to be a house-wife she can. So what choice does the father have in this situation? If this works its way to family court the father will be legally bound to the "provider" role due to the "best interest".

C) Women in general are still seeking out men that have the potential to be providers. They have the choice to seek out men that will be house-dads and that is not happening.

Women by law and cultural norms have the choice to balance home life and career in ways that a man does not.

All the evidence points that women in general seek out a balanced lifestyle in ways that men do not have the freedom to.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#190

Post by cg » Sat, Dec 17, 2011, 7:34 PM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #116

skore wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny, but not insightful. I assume that with pants, you don't mean plain jeans, but a pantsuit (because this isn't the 60's). There are pantsuits designed for women, but no dresses designed for men. Even further than that - a dress is very specific to female anatomy in a way that a suit isn't, to male anatomy. The real issue, however, is that a woman wearing a suit is perceived in a certain way (as aggressive…

No, I mean regular old jeans. Women seem to be able to "get away" with wearing "female" clothing, as well as "male" clothing without any questions asked. At least in the circles I am in^. The opposite is certainly not the case. I was not attempting to be funny at all. ^And anybody wearing a "suit"-anything is just a stiff. The people I consider my peers don't do that either at work or casually.

It took many decades and two wars for women to be able to "get away with" wearing pants. They were adopted for practical reasons as women entered the workforce (skirts are more likely to get caught in factory machinery), and abandoned again when women exited the workforce post-war. Until the women's movement, pants on women were only tolerated when they were considered necessary.