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Roger Penrose: “Consciousness must be beyond computable physics”

newscientist.com

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Re: Roger Penrose: “Consciousness must be beyond computable physics”

#11

Post by pencilguin »

etse wrote: post #8
gary_0 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very silly, and seems like a sad effort to shoehorn dualism back into science. But if the human brain is quantum-magical, kindly point out empirically how its mechanisms are special versus that of any other mammal's brain, or any reptile's, or any nematode worm's. Quantum mechanics is only involved as much as it is for any other form of chemistry. There is no ghost in any kind of meat.

Did you even read the article?

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Re: Roger Penrose: “Consciousness must be beyond computable physics”

#17

Post by pencilguin »

dekhn wrote: post #6
gary_0 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very silly, and seems like a sad effort to shoehorn dualism back into science. But if the human brain is quantum-magical, kindly point out empirically how its mechanisms are special versus that of any other mammal's brain, or any reptile's, or any nematode worm's. Quantum mechanics is only involved as much as it is for any other form of chemistry. There is no ghost in any kind of meat.

To be fair, quantum magic could have evolved after the human lineage forked off from the root that includes other mammals. IE, some magic gene duplication shortly after humans and neaderthals split from their common ancestor, then one copy evolved a slightly different structure that allowed neurons to exploit quantum magic. This seems implausible, nor would I place the root around the human lineage; might as well ass…

Yes, this is what is silly.

That is not to say it's impossible that we, uniquely, possess the consciousness gene. Possession by demons is technically possible, too, and equally silly.

Re: Roger Penrose: “Consciousness must be beyond computable physics”

#18

Post by gary_0 »

pencilguin wrote: post #17
dekhn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, quantum magic could have evolved after the human lineage forked off from the root that includes other mammals. IE, some magic gene duplication shortly after humans and neaderthals split from their common ancestor, then one copy evolved a slightly different structure that allowed neurons to exploit quantum magic. This seems implausible, nor would I place the root around the human lineage; might as well ass…

Yes, this is what is silly. That is not to say it's impossible that we, uniquely, possess the consciousness gene. Possession by demons is technically possible, too, and equally silly.

It's also silly because if it's a gene, then it's just using conventional chemistry to produce an effect. Plants have genes to make chloroplasts that use quantum effects[0] to efficiently do photosynthesis, but nobody is arguing the mechanism is some sort of special woo-woo science. And you can use the same tricks in a machine[1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Efficiency

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_photosynthesis

Re: Roger Penrose: “Consciousness must be beyond computable physics”

#19

Post by jffhn »

thinkmcfly wrote: post #5

Trust can be tough when really smart people can get things so wrong

I would say only smart people can get things so wrong. Experts are those who can dig the deepest, even if it's in the wrong direction, like psychologists before neurosciences, astronomers before telescopes, etc. To get the wrongest ideas, you need to ask an expert.

Re: Roger Penrose: “Consciousness must be beyond computable physics”

#20

Post by dekhn »

gary_0 wrote: post #18
pencilguin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is what is silly. That is not to say it's impossible that we, uniquely, possess the consciousness gene. Possession by demons is technically possible, too, and equally silly.

It's also silly because if it's a gene, then it's just using conventional chemistry to produce an effect. Plants have genes to make chloroplasts that use quantum effects[0] to efficiently do photosynthesis, but nobody is arguing the mechanism is some sort of special woo-woo science. And you can use the same tricks in a machine[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Efficiency [1] https://en.wikipedia.or…

Uh, yeah, when photosynthesis was first shown to exploit quantum it was called special woo-woo science. But it just exploits coherence, which is the one thing that seemed within reach of enzymes.
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