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Nerds and Male Privilege

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Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#121

Post by skore »

sciurus wrote: post #32
there wrote: post #24

Remember the example I mentioned earlier with my then-girlfriend in the comic store? Her opinions were deemed mistaken and she was told she didn't "get it"… because she was a girl. i'm not sure how that had anything to do with being a girl. she was told she didn't get it because she didn't get it. if a male walked into that comic shop looking out of place, picked up a book and said something disparaging outloud, he'd…

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#butbut

Not really sure whether that applies. There is a rather combative part of geek culture when it comes to defending either your own or the established view of your immediate peers. In that regard, geeks can indeed be astonishingly egalitarian in their derision of somebody with a perceived inferior viewpoint or understanding of the matter at hand. At that point, really all bets are off and if it is a battle between geeks, it is often a competition for who can be the most emotionless asshole.

This piss taking is something that most people would find offensive and it is this area of geekdom that is often perceived as the prime example for the emotional and social inability of geeks, particularly when a non-geek or a very fresh geek gets into such a fight. Put differently - the inability to understand that an argument about viewpoints can have limits that are deeply hurtful to other people when crossed is something that is often lost on geeks. In that regard, it is easy to conclude that the geek in question was simply being sexist. But it is also true that it was just an example for a geek not understanding that he didn't win additional points by venturing into the area of gender.

The problem is that the article really doesn't do much to qualify the "because she was a girl" statement. Was that an actual quote? Was it heavily implied? Or did it just fit the narrative closely enough that it would be accepted as another example per default?

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#122

Post by einhverfr »

I thought there were some interesting things that he missed in his assessment of comic books, presumably because of a specific cultural lens he was looking at.

The commic book male figures he mentioned fell into two types: The deadly serious, strong, sexy Batman and two not particularly sexed supervillains. In other words, while the women are all about sex, for men, only the good guys-- the superheroes-- are. This may still make a case for male privilege but it's not as clear-cut I think as he wants to think.

The second thing is that men tend to stare at boobs. This is not unique to geek culture.

This being said, I do think that it is important not to dismiss people's views because of gender. Some of the most talented programmers I have ever met were women. In fact I would take that further and say the most talented programmer I have ever worked with is a woman. I learned a heck of a lot about security audits, programming secure code, and also general algorithms and good software design, development, and engineering practices from her (including her starting IRC dialogs to call me on the carpet for mistakes on my part). To the extent women's views are ignored because of gender that's pretty bad.

But another thing I have heard from women in open source is that one of the most annoying aspects of gender in open source is to be asked over and over "so what do you think we need to do to get women involved in open source?" I have seen plenty of replies of "Do you have ANY idea how annoying it is to be constantly asked that?"

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#123

Post by 127 »

rayiner wrote: post #63
beloch wrote: post #46

The article makes some interesting points, but permit me to play devil's advocate when it comes to the way women and men are portrayed in geek media. All media, really. Men: Serious. Women: Sexy. Okay, no arguments there. But what does this difference in portrayal of the two sexes really mean? However much some might believe otherwise, humans are hard-wired by evolution to have gender roles. Homo sapiens has been aro…

> If this interpretation is correct, then media that portrays men as badass and woman as sexy isn't necessarily showing evidence of pandering to males. It may simply be reflecting evolutionary gender roles. It may be that this is one thing males should stop all the self-flagellation over. It's not about self-flagellation or who is pandering to who. The article makes a broader point about how the perception of gender…

>but what about the Joker and the Doctor? Skinny guy with disfigured face and pudgy dude with a neck beard?

Yes, I'm sure no woman found Heath Ledger sexy in Dark Knight. Also the Doctor being an imposing, dominating, taking the control type, surely kills any and all appeal he might ever have on women.

Both the Joker and the Doctor are still very masculine, powerful characters no matter how you look at things.

If you use male criteria for judging the attractiveness of a man to a woman, you are using male criteria for judging the attractiveness of a man to a woman. It is also called projection.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#124

Post by skore »

burgerbrain wrote: post #116
skore wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny, but not insightful. I assume that with pants, you don't mean plain jeans, but a pantsuit (because this isn't the 60's). There are pantsuits designed for women, but no dresses designed for men. Even further than that - a dress is very specific to female anatomy in a way that a suit isn't, to male anatomy. The real issue, however, is that a woman wearing a suit is perceived in a certain way (as aggressive…

No, I mean regular old jeans. Women seem to be able to "get away" with wearing "female" clothing, as well as "male" clothing without any questions asked. At least in the circles I am in^. The opposite is certainly not the case. I was not attempting to be funny at all. ^And anybody wearing a "suit"-anything is just a stiff. The people I consider my peers don't do that either at work or casually.

Yes, and I maintain that jeans simply aren't as gender specific as a dress. I have never heard that jeans are 'male'. That's why it's not a comparison of opposites.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#125

Post by burgerbrain »

skore wrote: post #124
burgerbrain wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mean regular old jeans. Women seem to be able to "get away" with wearing "female" clothing, as well as "male" clothing without any questions asked. At least in the circles I am in^. The opposite is certainly not the case. I was not attempting to be funny at all. ^And anybody wearing a "suit"-anything is just a stiff. The people I consider my peers don't do that either at work or casually.

Yes, and I maintain that jeans simply aren't as gender specific as a dress. I have never heard that jeans are 'male'. That's why it's not a comparison of opposites.

That jeans have ceased to be gender specific is my point in a nutshell.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#126

Post by ig1 »

The other day I was shocked to see this:

http://twitpic.com/7to6eb

An article referring to females working in technology as "tech totty".

This isn't some obscure insider tech publication, it's the cover for the industry journal for graduate recruitment.

I find it shocking that a mainstream HR journal would use such a term, and I think it's a sign that it's a wider issue than just the geek community. Society as a whole needs to become more accepting of girls in geek culture.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#127

Post by skore »

burgerbrain wrote: post #125
skore wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I maintain that jeans simply aren't as gender specific as a dress. I have never heard that jeans are 'male'. That's why it's not a comparison of opposites.

That jeans have ceased to be gender specific is my point in a nutshell.

That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument. Also - jeans ceased to be considered gender specific in society while also never being, in their shape and technical form, gender specific to begin with.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#128

Post by burgerbrain »

skore wrote: post #127
burgerbrain wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That jeans have ceased to be gender specific is my point in a nutshell.

That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument. Also - jeans ceased to be considered gender specific in society while also never being, in their shape and technical form, gender specific to begin with.

"That dresses haven't still breaks your initial argument."

No. You must be misunderstanding my initial argument if you think that it does. You are definitely missing my point if you don't think that I understand that about jeans...

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#129

Post by demallien »

mayanksinghal wrote: post #112
wanorris wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

> 1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. > 2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. I remember a discussion on HN where many of the comments have said that the best way to bring women into the industry is to…

There are many reasons for women being difficult to recruit in tech. Here's one - if you are an intelligent young woman having just finished high school, and about to choose your university courses you might have a look at the expected pay that you will receive in different industries. You note that in medicine and law women are no longer a minority, and that they receive equal pay, and nearly equal social power as their male counterparts. You note that in engineering this is not at all the case. Studies repeatedly show female engineers receiving less than their male counterparts[1]. Women are rarely promoted up in engineering organisations and engineering organisations are unusually hostile to flexible work arrangements[2].

The result is that unless you are absolutely passionate about engineering, the reasonable thing to do is to take a pass on engineering, and go for one of the many other rewarding careers available to you.

If you want to bring women into the industry, you need to make the industry appealing to women. With current discriminatory practices that is just not the case, and until that changes, there won't even be an opportunity to recruit women, because those with anything less than a burning passion for the career are going to look elsewhere.

[1] http://www.glassdoor.com/blog/engineering-pay-gap-glassdoor-... [2] http://www.studyofwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/NSF_Wo... page 27

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#130

Post by fforw »

armandososa wrote: post #48

Please just Google images for "romance novels".

.. or look at the way men are often presented in chick flicks. Rich, handsome, without any own personality whatsoever apart from magically mirroring what the female character needs at that point.
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