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Nerds and Male Privilege

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61–70 of 258 posts

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#61

Is it problematic that I'm sick of gender on HN? "Raising awareness" doesn't mean much when it essentially provokes the same inconsequential firefights. Can we just agree that men are pigs, women feel entitled, everyone's an asshole, startups need good engineers, and stop it? All this article really shows me is that the girlfriend was correct to avoid going into a comic book store. You cannot control culture you cann…

Step back and look at the big picture, if you will. Nobody can force someone to change their mind about anything. That's entirely up to you. Most readers here are probably pretty damn smart and capable of creating incredibly detailed justifications for believing what they want to believe. So in that narrow sense, you're totally right. But on the other hand, it's pretty curious to think that you can't influence cultur…

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Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#62

I really enjoyed this article. Harris O'Malley seems to actually see the real problem , and expresses it with a hell of a lot more nuance than most other treatments of the subject do. >> And when you check back on Friday, I'll provide you with some concrete applications on how being cognizant of male privilege will improve your relations with women. I'm excited about the possibilities of the "practical applications"…

I wish authors of these sorts of pieces would focus more on the following two questions: 1. What do you want me to do? 2. What's in it for me? Paint a picture of your ideal gender politics, and let me know why I'd like it better than the one we've got now. You might get further than you are just by attempting to convince me that people I like are "misogynists".

What do you want me to do?

"Feel bad about yourself" is usually my takeaway.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#63
post #46

The article makes some interesting points, but permit me to play devil's advocate when it comes to the way women and men are portrayed in geek media. All media, really. Men: Serious. Women: Sexy. Okay, no arguments there. But what does this difference in portrayal of the two sexes really mean? However much some might believe otherwise, humans are hard-wired by evolution to have gender roles. Homo sapiens has been aro…

> If this interpretation is correct, then media that portrays men as badass and woman as sexy isn't necessarily showing evidence of pandering to males. It may simply be reflecting evolutionary gender roles. It may be that this is one thing males should stop all the self-flagellation over.

It's not about self-flagellation or who is pandering to who. The article makes a broader point about how the perception of gender roles affect's our collective judgment about women's' contributions in geek society.

Your point about the basis of roles in biology is well taken, but:

1) It's not really clear how it's relevant to the larger point of the article. Batman is surely the epitome of sexual desirability in a man (rich, smart, attractive, crime fighter!) but what about the Joker and the Doctor? Skinny guy with disfigured face and pudgy dude with a neck beard? Those portrayals have nothing to do with sexual desirability. The Joker is supposed to convey manic-scary, and the Doctor precise-scary. Meanwhile, all the female portrayals are sexy-something. Sexy-crazy, sexy-eco terrorist, etc. Indeed, the point you make really reinforces the point in the article: we only portray women in terms of their sexual attractiveness, while we're willing to entertain a full range of human traits in men.

2) You can't say how much of these perceptions is rooted in culture versus biology. We're genetically predisposed to be skeptical of people not from "our clan", and slavery of not-like-kind people has been a feature of human society since antiquity, yet here we are in 2011, with massively different perceptions than even 60 years ago.

Perceptions aren't just abstract subjects of self-flagellation. They matter. Heck, geeks should be all too aware of this. As a born loudmouth, I've noticed countless times where people would take my opinion more seriously over someone who was more socially cautious. My girlfriend and I went through a pretty extensive recruiting process in our field in the last year, and you couldn't pay me to switch places with her. She assiduously avoided mentioning me, because it always lead to people trying to figure out if she was a flight risk, while my mentioning her always made me seem more stable. Even if the difference in perception gives women a few % handicap (though I'd postulate, without evidence, it's a heck of a lot more than that, especially in fields like tech or finance), that's a pretty substantial liability when you factor into account the level of competition.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#64
post #20

I don't think this is limited just to video games, comics, and such - a lot of TV and sporting events are full of "beautiful people" often wearing less/tighter things than they ought to be wearing. How is this different/worse than having cheerleaders on the side of a football field? Or Baywatch? Not that I'm defending poor or sexist behavior, but singling out "nerds" as being the worst troglodytes out there seems a b…

> How is this different/worse than having cheerleaders on the side of a football field? Or Baywatch? It's not, but (as mentioned in the article) football fans and Baywatch viewers aren't generally holding up their communities as beacons of meritocracy while nerd communities frequently do.

Footballers, cheerleaders and hollywood are held up as a meritocracy.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some of us, however, remember the torment, the humiliation, the violence, the scorn and the ostracism of finding science, electronics, and computers fascinating. There was, indeed, such a time. Many nerds who endured poor treatment at the hands of their peers developed deep emotional traumas that, to this day, exist to some extent or another. One of these traumas is borne of the experience of being not merely reject…

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

That's a shockingly insightful list.

I love #30: I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

I've found that I can entertain a much broader range of personality tones than my female friends. You have to be an order of magnitude more aggressive to be an "asshole" than you do to be a "bitch." "Pensive" is a word you might use for a man, "moody" for the equivalent in a woman. I've never had to fight a socialized urge to defer to anyone in conversation, and certainly not to someone of the opposite sex.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#67
post #26

One comment I wanted to make about this the last time this came up... "Privilege" is a loaded word. It's a word that some people take great offense to, but it's a word that cannot rationally be ignored. Success can be a pretty fragile phenomenon. I never fully appreciated the benefit of privilege until relatively recently. I was an unfocused teenager who slacked in college, but stumbled onto a good career anyway (so…

Credit checks for jobs?

Standard procedure in some fields, surprisingly common in others. I had a friend get hassled about an open collection before taking a job with the feds.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#68
Sexism isn't exclusive to nerds, and nerd hostility is about more than females. This is the golden age of the geek, his once scorned subculture has been universally vindicated across all domains. In TV, movies, music, fashion, gaming, and of course business, being a geek is now the in thing. The geek's meteoric rise into the mainstream has caught the culture off guard. Suddenly, everyone wants to be seen reading comics, playing games, and tinkering with computers, and now the once ostracized "true scottsman" nerd must account for the burgeoning interest of the general public in "his" world.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#69

[warning: slightly offensive] I really would hope, that women in video games are in fact judged by how attractive they are. I certainly wouldn't want an obese woman superhero saving the world, just as I'm sure the gay males and the straight women wouldn't want to see a tub of lard (excuse my language) in a male, who is supposed to epitomize the superhuman virtues that we lack. Yeah, it's shit easy to wave a finger an…

Have you stopped to think about what the effects of sexually objectifying women are (aside from titillating you)? I don't see how arguing that a harmful thing is pervasive excuses it.

Re: Nerds and Male Privilege

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty good starter inventory for what feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege". http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ You may disagree with the analysis behind the list's construction, but I see little if anything on that list that obviously gets crossed off the list by virtue of being a geek. Social justice theorists also talk about different kinds of privileges, so the id…

That's a shockingly insightful list. I love #30: I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. I've found that I can entertain a much broader range of personality tones than my female friends. You have to be an order of magnitude more aggressive to be an "asshole" than you do to be a "bitch." "Pensive" is a word you might use for a man, "moody" for the e…

I don't disagree with your examples, but I do think that men are more common targets for the "creepy / sketchy" nexus of slurs, including the not-particularly sexualized varieties. The same goes for the "loser / choke artist" family, I think.
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