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U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

nytimes.com

221–230 of 242 posts

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Southwest is an example of general admission applied to airline seating. By the time you're calling non-middle seats "premium", we've already lost. We should aim to have markets that provide abundance rather than focusing on extraction through things like price discrimination. It's indefensible that they sell seats which then aren't actually big enough to fit a person, whether it be their legs or their arms - this is…

There's no airline seat that can't "fit a person", that's hyperbole. Fit any person, maybe. Fit without touching the person next to you, maybe. Fit without negotiating who uses the armrest or shared spaces with a stranger, maybe. I fly frequently, I'm 6'2", I'm obese. I fit into a middle seat. Don't love it, it's not the nicest, but it's less cramped than any public transit seat and most theater seats.

By your definition, it would be fine for them to sell the seat that was your lap to someone else, since your body still has enough volume to exist.

I've often flown in seats where I had to spread my legs (eg into the aisle) so my knees were not pressed up against the seat in front of me. And on most flights, my shoulders are over the armrests. Talking about "the" armrest nicely demonstrates how much we've been saturated by their nonsense.

As I said, I'd have no problem if airlines charged as a linear combination of your weight and the dimensions of your seat. But rather the setup is to gouge an outsized price for a comparatively small amount of additional room, because they'll catch people at the margins over a barrel.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a general admission concert ticket, your grouping still remains intact. I haven't flown in a while (thankfully), but the original comment makes it sound like they sell you an unassigned seat ticket, but then assign you a specific sometime down the road, perhaps maliciously.

No, it doesn't, it's still a matter of luck. When you get to a general admission event, you might find that there's a seat in the middle two rows up, two seats together and then another seat three rows away. I've certainly experienced this; and I've experienced cases where I'm lucky and we can sit together. But it's very typical for parties to leave single seats between and for you to be stuck with scattered single s…

General admission is usually either standing room or lawn seats. I can't think of a show I've been to that had GA tickets and capacity defined by the number of hard seats, for exactly that reason. I'd believe it could happen, just not commonly.

There are many reasons you might want to split up your group at a GA event, like say some people wanting to push up to the front. Or in your seat example, if your group values being closer rather than being together in further back seats. But that's your own choice and not a result of the venue forcing you.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't? So the officers groped me just for fun this summer? And my GF's bra had to be undone just for fun too?

> So the officers groped me just for fun this summer? And my GF's bra had to be undone just for fun too? Probably yes. But for their fun, not yours.

They didn't look like they were having fun, tbh. If I had to grope 300+ people, some of them really not appealing, I wouldn't have fun too.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#224
post #220
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's tough to live near SFO on a Customs and Border Protection salary. I'm not surprised they have trouble with staffing.

SFO's airport security is actually run by a private firm: https://www.flysfo.com/about/airport-operations/safety-secur...

The parent comment by @1024core was about passport control, not security screening. All passport checks at SFO are performed by government employees.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#225
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're still going to get to where you want to go and you'll still get a seat. That's the service you're paying for. The service I'm paying for includes an assigned seat, just like my ticket to the movies does. Its not justifiable for an airline - A federally regulated industry, not some mom and pop local business - to intentionally degrade the quality of their product to nickle and dime their customers. Lets expan…

> federally regulated industry Regulations are primarily there for safety concerns, not you complaining about what is honestly a non-issue. If you don't want to pay for premium seats just don't pay for them?? But on that note, airline deregulation in the US has been the best thing that has ever happened to air travel. It is now far, far more accessible to travel by air. The revealed customer preference is that very f…

>Regulations are primarily there for safety concerns, not you complaining about what is honestly a non-issue. If you don't want to pay for premium seats just don't pay for them??

Regulations are also there to curtail monopolistic or "anti-competitive" behavior. What is nickel and diming people who don't have an alternative anything but abusing a monopolistic position? In a healthily competitive market[0] this could be adequately adjusted for.

> some varying strawmen

Politely refrain from cursory and trite dismissals - I have engaged with your points in good faith but you do not seem to be doing me the same courtesy. Why is it you consider these to be either unrealistic or patently unacceptable but airlines splitting up families is neither?

[0]E.g. movie theaters have majorly moved over the last decade or so to assigned seating, because this provides a better experience -- a competitive advantage and because trying to rent seek via price discrimination would see them lose customers.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#226

If I may comment on the abstract issue here... the experience of flying (US domestic) is a boiling frog situation. Flying used to be fun. 9-11 greatly accelerated the problems, but it had already been getting worse for decades as its popularity grew. Especially because I have long intervals when I don't fly, I absolutely dread the answer to my question, "What new, horrible treatment / experience / standards / fees /…

Note, the most influential change to air travel in the US occurred following deregulation in 1978. This is a case study for many business schools and labor laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while TSA-related impositions that save a number of lives that's close to zero Are there any good estimates of the total economic costs of this security theatre?

You can make one yourself: How many hijackings of US airlines where there in the 20 years before, and after. The number was higher before, but it was very small. Locking the airplane cockpit door, along with awareness that hijackers will kill you (as opposed to fly you to a different country and you are free in a couple days if you stay quiet) are also factors. I don't know how to separate them from anything the TSA…

> Locking the airplane cockpit door

A change which contributed to the complete loss of an aircraft and all aboard when the pilot left to go to the toilet and the copilot locked the door to crash it into a mountainside. The law of unintended consequences in full effect. Had such a change not been enacted that flight likely would have survived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#228
post #59
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has the US threatened to ratchet up fines in the past and not done so?

Spam callers come to mind. Some of it may be due to some technical nature that made it difficult/impossible to enforce but we've had donotcall.gov and all sorts of legislation for fines and penalitoes and I still get slews of spam solicitations to this day. I think the general consensus for your average citizen and consumer these days is that they are voiceless and powerless in most these situations while lots of pos…

I wonder if the spam calling companies keep appearing and disappearing so quickly that it's hard for the government to find them. That's not the case for airlines.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#229
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I ever come into possession of fuck you money, I intend to set up an organization whose mission is to buy cheap plane tickets that people are not intended to fly on, and then pay and instruct people on how to screw with the TSA completely legally.

It would probably be more effective to fund a few senators and congress people on the condition that they amend the The Aviation and Transportation Security Act.

He said fuck you money, not Jeff Bezos money.

Re: U.S. fines airlines more than $7M for not providing refunds

#230

If I may comment on the abstract issue here... the experience of flying (US domestic) is a boiling frog situation. Flying used to be fun. 9-11 greatly accelerated the problems, but it had already been getting worse for decades as its popularity grew. Especially because I have long intervals when I don't fly, I absolutely dread the answer to my question, "What new, horrible treatment / experience / standards / fees /…

In the US, this trend largely started with the airline deregula act in 1978.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_deregulation#Post-dere...

It's been a constant trend towards a. cheaper flights b. worse quality flights.

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