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Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

danfitdegree.hashnode.dev

121–130 of 340 posts

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#121

HN is the only useful escalation mechanism at this point, so have an upvote.

I somewhat doubt Google responds effectively anymore to bad PR on HN, because (a) they're so large and each group is acting in its own best interest, and (b) Google has for so long had a cultural belief in the fiction that better automation ™ or at least mechanical turk-style automation (low-cost, powerless, script-following, outsourced support agents) is always preferable to personally serving people. In other words…

Im confident theres a few googlers watching things and happy to play the role of Harry Tuttle.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#122
post #61
post #14

Is there any large group representing App developers that could manage the large-scale negotiation and legal wrangling required to force Apple and Google to be more helpful when rejecting legitimate applications? When I worked in Google (Ads, then later in Recommendations for Play and youtube) people often said this was intention to avoid teaching spammers how to get around the rules. But it's clear there are enough…

Part of the problem here might be conflating abuse prevention with policy compliance. Abuse prevention is adversarial, and it's risky to reveal details about why something was flagged as abusive. Policy compliance isn't, or shouldn't be. A building inspector wouldn't say "this building has a code violation in the kitchen area" and refuse to provide specifics about what would fix it. An app store needs both, and they…

> A building inspector wouldn't say "this building has a code violation in the kitchen area" and refuse to provide specifics about what would fix it.

Electrical inspections can be very much that way.

"This isn't up to code, I'm not signing off on it."

"How is it not up to code?"

"Your electrician knows. Or you can look in the electrical code."

Your electrician doesn't know; no other inspector has ever objected to the way they've done things.

That electrical code is paywalled, despite being official government policy (written and published by a trade association, which regularly updates said code mostly to force people to keep re-buying their volumes.)

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#123
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why its the ethical responsibility of every dev to use Firefox when they can.

As if Firefox is not funded by Google.

They've divorced themselves from Google funding in the past (and signed with Yahoo in the US, other search engines elsewhere) and likely could again. Not to mention being paid by Google for a service and literally being Google are two very different things.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#124
Stay off Google. Stay off Apple. Stay off Facebook. Stay off Amazon. Stay off Microsoft. Stay off Reddit. Stay off Twitter. Stay off Adobe. Stay off Salesforce. Stay off Oracle. Stay off Sony. Stay off eBay. Stay off GoDaddy. Stay off PayPal. Stay off Etsy. Stay off Steam. Stay off Comcast. Stay off RCA.

Own your platform from the bottom to the top. If your business model requires you to rely on one of these companies, pivot.

We have lost. They have won. They can deplatform anyone for anything or for nothing. Your continued use of the platform depends on whether or not you make them money. You are entitled to nothing they have built. They are not providing public services or utilities.

Abandon them, or on your own head be it when, not if, you get fucked.

If possible, stay off the U.S. Dollar.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#125
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem here might be conflating abuse prevention with policy compliance. Abuse prevention is adversarial, and it's risky to reveal details about why something was flagged as abusive. Policy compliance isn't, or shouldn't be. A building inspector wouldn't say "this building has a code violation in the kitchen area" and refuse to provide specifics about what would fix it. An app store needs both, and they…

> A building inspector wouldn't say "this building has a code violation in the kitchen area" and refuse to provide specifics about what would fix it. Electrical inspections can be very much that way. "This isn't up to code, I'm not signing off on it." "How is it not up to code?" "Your electrician knows. Or you can look in the electrical code." Your electrician doesn't know; no other inspector has ever objected to the…

That's actually really problematic - both that the code is paywalled and that an inspector would be cagey about it.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#126
post #91

As someone who writes policies like the one you're battling I also feel for the customer service agents you're haranguing. There are a lot of reasons we're here today: -due to Google's massive success, whether or not you can add something to their marketplace basically makes or breaks your career. Crazy. -because every regulator in the world constantly hounds Google their lawyers have instructed everyone to be conser…

> I also feel for the customer service agents you're haranguing

I feel vaguely sorry that people have to do these jobs where they are set up to be harrangued. However, I sincerely hope they are at least prepared for it.

A normal person, including Anthony, would say something like:

Sorry, I'm working with an automated system which doesn't provide me with any more information, and cannot obtain any more help from my organization; even though I may appear to be an insider, in a real sense I am an 'employed outsider'.

I have no contact information for escalating these kinds of problems, nothing. Let me put this in the clearest possible terms: even if I wrote an application myself which got rejected, and if I by dumb luck I were assigned to my own support case, I would not be able to help myself. Get it? The best I would be able to do is perhaps randomly change the application or rewrite it and hope that the new one sticks.

Someone obviously knows the machinery, and why it rejects certain applications, but I'm not allowed to know who that is. And it's not even clear they would do anything about it.

What I'm saying is effectively that I could perform this support job to its full extent if I were sitting over there with you, looking over your shoulder, relying on what you have on your screen.

In short, I am completely useless to you, in this matter. I am here to answer the dumb questions that smart people people like you can resolve by themselves, for the sake of that minority who aren't able to. Think of me like someone who CAN google, rather than someone AT Google.

In addition to that, I can do stunningly realistic impressions. If we go to voice chat, I will introduce you to Putin!

The closest Anthony came to the above was admitting that the repeated material was all the information that was given to him.

This means basically one thing; Anthony was trained to push back on these requests and just use the provided information, and also trained not to talk about the circumstances of his support work in any personal way.

That job is acceptable to Anthony and so there he is; whether that means it sucks to be Anthony is hard to say. Maybe it's better than jobs he had before and he's happy for now. Maybe Anthony is able to help a good fraction of the cases, and feels good about that.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least on Android you can install alternate app stores like F-Droid. All you have to do is allow apps to be installed from unknown sources. If you use Apple, you're just out of luck unless you want to mess with whatever hacky workaround is popular this week.

I've been using altstore successfully, minor hindrance of resigning side loaded apps every week, but if you can leave your PC on it does that automatically.

With a free apple developer account, you're also limited to only three "active" sideloaded apps. It's a huge hindrance. If you want more, you've got to shell out those 100 bucks per year.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#129
I had this problem with a phone case that I ordered from the Google Store. It shipped, allegedly, but the tracking never updated. After ten days I asked to cancel my order but was told that this could not be done as I had a tracking number. If I wished to return the item after it was received, I could do so for a full refund.

I spent a week going back and forth with them and explaining that nothing had actually shipped and, again, asked for a refund. 90% of the time they sent me something telling me what the tracking number was and that I could return the item once it was received for a full refund. The other 10% of the time they assured me that I was being handed off to another service tier and that this group would surely be able to help me.

The higher tier just sent me the same tracking number and seemingly ignored my pleas and my question of what happens if I do not receive the item before the return window had closed.

It wasn't even worth that much, but I was being petty and tried to respond within minutes of them emailing me. My thought was that someone over there was desperately trying to keep their work queue empty, and I was going to do my best to prevent that from happening.

They finally refunded my order 18 days after it had been placed. The tracking information still says that they're waiting for the package from Google. I'm half expecting a phone case to randomly arrive within the next few months.

Re: Two weeks of dealing with Google as a developer

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like in this case it needs to be a craft union or industrial union: a union made up of laborers of a craft or industry (in this case, mobile app developers). Get enough developers of high-profile apps on board, and now you have negotiating power. If they balk, make a union-controlled app store, threaten to sell apps only on the union store.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is more like a guild than a union. There is no discussion of leveling pay or anything similar.

The doctors, lawyers, actors, musicians, and other professions have guilds like this. What makes them work is that there is a limited supply of available experts in the field, and a desire to raise their bargaining power.

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