Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile • Hacker News Board

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#361

Post by nasmorn » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

cbsmith wrote: post #236

fluidcruft wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPS investigated and cleared them and then dropped the case. It's the cops and DA who kept going.

...and really, CPS does need to investigate. Yes, most often it's just a nosey neighbour, but every now and then those nosey neighbours are on to something, and while unpleasant for the families, missing that one case is the horror story they want to avoid.

Depends on what was reported but if the report said child walked alone on the sidewalk the really do not need to investigate. That is my daughters regular activity when they go to school and come back. If someone reports me as having had dinner, why does the police need to come to my house? Where is the potential crime?

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#362

Post by scarby2 » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #327

gspencley wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investigate, absolutely. The cops need to do that as well. However, as someone else pointed out "Child services had the family agree to a safety plan" is not investigating. That's taking action and making a threat: "if you don't agree to this we'll take you to court and let a judge sort it out at your expense."

When CPS is investigating abuse it seems completely reasonable for them to implement a safety plan to ensure ongoing abuse doesn't occur during the investigation. Far better than yanking the kids into protective custody.

but they had no suspicion that any abuse was occurring?

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#363

Post by kube-system » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

1123581321 wrote: post #72

mlindner wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct! There's a lot of crazy people out in the world who'll call the cops for all manner of things. The correct response would have been to ignore the call following a couple questions by the 911 operator. "Is the child in danger in any way?" the response would be "No." and then hang up on them.

The problem is the person calling will lie or exaggerate instead of saying no. If questioned later, they can fall back on claiming they were just trying to help and avoid getting in trouble. Angry or nosy neighbors, police and social services can get each other caught up in a cycle of escalation that lasts years for some unfortunate families.

> The problem is the person calling will lie or exaggerate instead of saying no.

The person calling is likely not "lying" about anything. If they believe it is dangerous for a kid to walk in the street, then the answer is a truthful "yes".

These people simply have different worldviews.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#364

Post by kelnos » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #327

gspencley wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investigate, absolutely. The cops need to do that as well. However, as someone else pointed out "Child services had the family agree to a safety plan" is not investigating. That's taking action and making a threat: "if you don't agree to this we'll take you to court and let a judge sort it out at your expense."

When CPS is investigating abuse it seems completely reasonable for them to implement a safety plan to ensure ongoing abuse doesn't occur during the investigation. Far better than yanking the kids into protective custody.

That sort of thinking enables all sorts of abuse, though. Knowing this, a neighbor with a beef with parent-neighbors could cause them a lot of grief by manufacturing a false report to the police or CPS, in such a way that they won't get in trouble themselves.

I get that sometimes pro-active measures are prudent, but "hey, police, I saw my neighbor's kid walking outside unattended" is not one of those times.

And even if we did agree that these parents were in the wrong, and that the kid shouldn't have been walking alone, the "safety plan" CPS came up with was still a huge unnecessary overreaction. That kind of plan should be reserved for situations when CPS is investigating reports of active abuse.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#365

Post by rootusrootus » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

richx wrote: post #306

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It puts neighbors in a bad situation. Yesterday there was a kid, probably about eight years old, outside my house wandering around by himself, yelling at passing cars. There are lots of kids in my neighborhood and I'm accustomed to them being loud when they're out playing but this kid was alone, going out into the road, and just acting a bit weird. It wasn't a kid I knew so I couldn't call the parents but calling the…

Why didn’t you just ask the kid what it is doing and where it is living?

Perhaps OP is a man. I wouldn't approach a strange child outside my house, either, unless they were on my property doing something destructive. Better to let my wife handle such situations.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#366

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

VancouverMan wrote: post #122

CodeMage wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the time my son finally gathered the confidence to take the training wheels off his bike and learn to ride it without them. My wife and I were walking, and he was on his bike, and he was so happy and pumped about his achievement, that he asked to ride farther away, out of our sight. Now, this is a peaceful suburban neighborhood we're talking about, and we're on a stretch between his school and a park ne…

> smile politely all the way to avoid escalating. That attitude, while perhaps more comfortable in some ways, just enables the sort of behaviour you encountered, and apparently disliked, from that woman. A blunt response like, "Fuck off. Don't talk to my son.", followed by walking away from her, may have been harsher and not particularly polite, but perhaps it'd cause a person like her to avoid such meddling in the f…

[deleted]

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#367

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

fluidcruft wrote: post #354

dragonwriter wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That was only while they investigated (which I'm fine with). I’m not; there should be some reasonable basis for this level of intrusion, which there was not (note that the facts of the report were true and confirmed and still did not violate family law that CPS enforces; this isn't a case where someone reported something which would have warranted CPS intervention if confirmed.)

How could CPS possibly know that before they investigate?

> How could CPS possibly know that before they investigate?

The same way they knew when the investigation confirmed the initial report, and it wasn't a violation.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#368

Post by bengy5959 » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #324

COGlory wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the neighbors job to be mentally functional. It is, however, the police's, DA, and CPS's job.

> It isn't the neighbors job to be mentally functional. I'm not sure I agree. One of the requirements for an adult citizen in a civil society is to be reasonable in your dealings with neighbors. > It is, however, the police's, DA, and CPS's job. "Mentally functional" does not necessarily mean "giving citizens a break". The criminal law that the mom was charged with is a law, it's on the books, and law enforcement is…

Should someone get a ticket for going 66 mph in a 65 zone? I don't really think officer discretion is avoidable to a certain degree. Laws can never be written perfectly. There are always going to be ridiculous edge cases like this where a reasonable person would know the law shouldn't be applied. This is why so much legal precedent is based on what a reasonable person would do or what a reasonable person would assume given a certain situation.

I do agree that the neighbor should not be let off on this, nor am I trying to excuse their behavior. But there are always going to be Karens that call the cops for no reason and the system has to be able to deal with that.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#369

Post by ALittleLight » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

cloverich wrote: post #313

ALittleLight wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all the fault of the nosy neighbor. The neighbor made a bad choice, but could plausibly have been motivated by good intentions. A young child walking alone may seem a cause for concern, and, perhaps all the neighbor wanted was to make sure the child was safe. I certainly see no evidence that the neighbor acted maliciously - some people are just legitimately unaware that the police are frequently comically…

An 8 year old walking home, half a mile, confronted by the neighbor on the kids own street and the kid stated where they were going when the neighbor asked. They called the cops AFTER that. Per the article.

Again, if the police worked correctly this would not be a problem. We don't hear the neighbor's side of the story - it could be anything and it could completely justify her actions. Calling the police on a walking child is unnecessary, and, while it could be motivated by malice, seems more likely to be motivated by an over abundance of caution and concern for the child. Making an unnecessary police call is bad, but only slightly, and it isn't anywhere near the badness of the other actions in the article.

Complaining about the neighbor is like complaining that the child was misbehaving which caused the child to walk home. Yes, it's true that misbehaving is bad, but only very slightly and we expect children to do that sometimes. Making unnecessary police calls is slightly bad and we expect some overly cautious people to do that sometimes.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#370

Post by martyvis » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 7:27 PM UTC

rrauenza wrote: post #312

muwtyhg wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A young child walking alone may seem a cause for concern, and, perhaps all the neighbor wanted was to make sure the child was safe. They verified where the child lived, which was just down the block, and still proceeded to call the police instead of... escorting the kid home? > A woman one block away had called the cops to report a boy walking outside alone. That lady had actually asked Aiden where he lived, verifi…

I thought the same.. but who knows, in all serious, maybe the woman feared someone would accuse her of attempted kidnapping.

And that is the another "modern" problem. I live in a semi-rural village, with 5km to the nearest town. If a teenage child was walking in between them (say they're bike was broken down) and I drive past:

1. I'd think if I stop and offer to pick them up, they might think I'm a potential pedophile/kidnapper. So I'm reticent.

2. They would think, as they likely have been trained, if they put out a hand and ask for a lift it might be be a kidnapper.

Somehow we have conditioned ourselves and our children in the space of maybe 40 years to think the absolute worst is likely when the reality it is actually quite rare.

(I'm in Australia)