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Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

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Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#51
post #20

This won't be valid for everyone, but I'm getting more and more convinced that most (a lot of?) people don't "work" work 40 hours anyway. I'm not even mentally capable of doing 40 intense hours of focussed work. Not saying I don't have other tasks besides coding/thinking in that time, but honestly not for the full slot of time. It just feels to me like some sort of secret we all share and pretend like it's fine, but…

I agree we don't put in a full 40 hours. Unless someone is working a 1950's style assembly line (meatpacking plant for example) few will put in those 40 hours even in manual labor ---you're chatting, playing around, etc. for some time. White collar work, is of course, way worse. There is a lot of slack time in between tasks and meetings and so on. So during those 40 hours, let's say a person delivers 100 work units.…

My pace of work is burn myself out in the first 1-2 hours of every day and then procrastinate / go to meetings.

I'm so happy to be out of the office. Being able to work whenever works for me (and my ADHD brain) has probably given me at least 50% more output on average. Hours don't mean anything to me and nobody has ever complained about my work pace (rather the opposite).

Pretending to be busy in an office was torture.

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#52

This won't be valid for everyone, but I'm getting more and more convinced that most (a lot of?) people don't "work" work 40 hours anyway. I'm not even mentally capable of doing 40 intense hours of focussed work. Not saying I don't have other tasks besides coding/thinking in that time, but honestly not for the full slot of time. It just feels to me like some sort of secret we all share and pretend like it's fine, but…

You're probably not wrong. The data supports it. > In October, the average workweek for all employees on private nonfarm payrolls was 34.5 hours for the fifth month in a row. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm

The pessimist in me has to wonder how much of this is employers manipulating schedules to keep employees from classifying as full time?

I see the report calls out part time workers at 3.7m yet still I wonder.

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#53
post #39

A lot of people have a goal to minimize work and maximize income, and for those people, no matter what flexibility they are given, they will continue to minimize productive work. It’s sad in my opinion, and it leads to hedonic pursuits instead of the intrinsic satisfaction that comes from doing good work. But for too many people work is about man vs “the man”, instead of our individual quest to do something interesti…

A lot of businesses have a goal to maximize work and minimize wages, and for those businesses…

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#54
post #44

At my previous startup we tried this with engineering and actually saw a productivity _increase_ from 4-day work-week.

I will say the morale improvement on my team when we switched to 4/10s was worth it alone. We couldn't swing the reduction in hours unfortunately.

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is that both parties have agreed that 40 hours of work a week is worth that much money. And if there are people already willing to work 84 hours for less money then they would be employed already for less at 40 hours.

> 40 hours of work a week The concept of hours per week is shaped by it's origin in production manufacturing. Most people who are in a position to discuss 4 day weeks are in the Service Sector or otherwise 'creative roles'. This is analogue to the argument of why do we not pay developers by lines of code. Both time and LOCs are not necessarily linear with productivity and delivery of function. Arguing for pay to be l…

It's not a bad metric. It's just not a perfect metric. And, more importantly, paying for time isn't a metric at all. It's just one of the legal ways to employ people. Paying for deliverables, which you describe, is another legal way to employ people.

Here are some downsides to paying for deliverables:

Any job that requires talking to other people will suffer, as they won't work at the same time. Some jobs this is okay (e.g. open source development is very asynchronous) but many are not.

If you move to deliverables, what happens if you don't deliver on time? Do you not get paid?

Who sets the deliverables? How are they paid, if they are the ones creating a nice deliverable structure for others to get paid for delivering bits of?

How do we measure the value of each deliverable, to pay accordingly?

How do we measure if you really delivered?

If the company decides the deliverable is no longer valuable and stops it halfway, do you not get paid? Do you get paid based on the estimated value (at the time the work was agreed) of the bits you did do? Do you have to negotiate that?

If you go on leave, should you not get paid?

If you deliver twice as fast, do you get paid faster?

How does "realisation of a function" work except based on time? If I'm at a service desk, should I be paid nothing if no tickets come in? Or should I be paid for... my time?

What I'm driving at is you've invented something that already exists: the fixed-price contract. Scope is agreed, lawyers get involved to approve it, and finance for its budget, you do the work, the scope slips in a way that the customer believes was implied all along, you bring in lawyers to fight, and you get paid at the end, or not, and the work at the end probably suffers quality-wise because you had a fixed-price deliverable, and the faster you do it the more money you get. I don't think many people are up for that; nor are many companies going to go through that pain per-employee.

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#56
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk posted screens of his Elden Ring progress a couple weeks after launch. Given other players had to sink 60-80 hours in to get to the same point Musk was broadcasting, he was working 48 hours a day at his companies and on Elden Ring. Bezos has given interviews about his habits. He works maybe 10-20 hours a week. Billing 40 hours every week to run scripts that generate a Github repo structure in minutes has been pr…

Picasso offered a drawing in a napkin for $1M dollars, even though it took him 1 min to draw it. You know the gist. Bezos might do 20 hours a week of “work” because he scaffolded a giant organization around his brain, so he only needs to provide certain input. Besides, much of the non-work time, such as public speaking and so forth, is actually work. Also the ultimate test is whether after confessing to your real con…

He had 50 people invest tens of thousands each to build that scaffold.

He’s not a genius just well networked.

Idle idolatry of normal human beings with no effort to verify their real outputs creates an unfalsifiable truth Bezos is a lynchpin to reality.

Ooo oo I heard it through the grapevine, Bezos is not what you might call “divine”…

The rich did not invent science, engineering, and economic activity. Human behavior gives rise to those things organically. The rich are merely playing information awareness constraint games; a man named Farmer is a farmer, an engineer is an engineer, and there’s no reason to allow them agency to learn other things.

His value is rooted in traditions of political correctness to buy into that narrative, not immutable laws of nature.

Every worker faces the risk of their livelihood vanishing tomorrow. One slip of the tongue costing their job. Why are these guys insulated from the same?

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#58
post #37

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NPR is not funded in a significant way by the government. Only about 4% of their annual funding is from government sources. [1] [1] https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/national-public-ra...

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Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#59

Quoted post unavailable.

You are failing to engage with the content here.

Work itself is behaving like a complex system with bottlenecks and constraints and all that. The deadlines are being shown to expand to the time allotted, in a similar fashion to how opening a new lane on a highway often does not improve traffic and might even make it worse.

In complex systems, the “greedy algorithm” (gradient descent) fails. For example, you might see some welders playing cards, and yell at them to go be doing work, (greedy algorithm: any inefficiency you see, correct it immediately) but this might cause huge delays for your customers rather than making things faster. How? Well it comes down to why were they playing cards. If it truly had to do with them being lazy, that's one thing. The Union rep might even back you up and yell at them for you. But they might also be implementing a low-latency subunit. They don't have work to do right now and it's important that the moment they have work to do, they can start it in an instant. You send them all to look productive God knows where, then when work comes in folks have to hunt them down and get them back here. Or, the card playing could implement a backpressure mechanism, “yeah we know the QC folks who will handle these are still pretty swamped with the backlog...”

So if you give me a linear circuit comprised of resistors and capacitors and inductors, and you propose increasing the voltage on the lines that feed it, I know that other voltages seen across the circuit will scale proportionately—this is your “20% more.” and same with “if I reduce this resistor's resistance, more current will flow over there” etc. But once you throw a diode or transistor in there, all bets are off! “No, when you tweak this the diode goes from being forward biased to being reverse biased and NO current flows over there.”

So it matters terribly much whether work is a simple linear system or a complex of feedback loops.

Re: Companies ran an experiment: Pay workers their full salary to work fewer days

#60
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're probably not wrong. The data supports it. > In October, the average workweek for all employees on private nonfarm payrolls was 34.5 hours for the fifth month in a row. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm

The pessimist in me has to wonder how much of this is employers manipulating schedules to keep employees from classifying as full time? I see the report calls out part time workers at 3.7m yet still I wonder.

That's a great point. I interpret that there's a difference of "assigned 40 hours" and "works 40 hours" that is being called out in this data.
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