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Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

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Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#681
post #653
post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Early on, the goal was to reach herd immunity while we still had vaccines that were fairly effective at reducing transmission against the variants we had had, before they mutated. The mRNA vaccines weren't even tested for transmission during the early trials. It was impossible to make educated statements about reaching herd immunity through mass vaccination without any data. This did not stop people from introducin…

I think that was a reasonable assumption given our understanding of infectious diseases. In hindsight, that was incorrect, but you can't criticize a decision made with limited information with perfect information, and pretend like you would've seen the perfect information at the time. It is reasonable to assume that viruses would be subject to herd immunity, because it's been true for the vast majority of viruses we'…

> you can't criticize a decision made with limited information with perfect information, and pretend like you would've seen the perfect information at the time.

I can absolutely criticize handwavy low knowledge / high impact decisions afterwards, because that's what they were and that was clear to many at that time already. Consensus wasn't reached based on knowledge, but based on power.

Luckily I came to that conclusion early during the pandemic, so I don't feel compelled to defend unethical decisions now.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#682
post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there is no standard of proof that will convince you that the vaccine is better than the virus. But also, I'm not really trying to convince you of anything. I'm just stating why your sources don't say what you think they do. As well as explaining confounding variables that your reference doesn't take into account for what that means. None of your sources are accounting for how politically embroiled this vacci…

> I mean, there is no standard of proof that will convince you that the vaccine is better than the virus. So... what you're saying is that the vaccine is not better than the virus? Because that is the simplest and best explanation for this observation.

lol, the deep cut on the logic. Unfortunately, no, I mean that the person is being irrational in their standard of proof.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#683
post #681
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that was a reasonable assumption given our understanding of infectious diseases. In hindsight, that was incorrect, but you can't criticize a decision made with limited information with perfect information, and pretend like you would've seen the perfect information at the time. It is reasonable to assume that viruses would be subject to herd immunity, because it's been true for the vast majority of viruses we'…

> you can't criticize a decision made with limited information with perfect information, and pretend like you would've seen the perfect information at the time. I can absolutely criticize handwavy low knowledge / high impact decisions afterwards, because that's what they were and that was clear to many at that time already. Consensus wasn't reached based on knowledge, but based on power. Luckily I came to that conclu…

ah, I should've known I was having this discussion with someone who is clairvoyant

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#684
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, too Vaccinated twice without booster, you are still considered unvaccinated

Two vaccinations + confirmed recovery is enough afaik.

I think quite a few people caught omicron and didn't bother getting it confirmed. You have to go out into a public space, where you're presumably possibly spreading it, and get the more advanced test, even after you've already done the regular Bürgertest. Additionally, during the omicron wave the exemption from restrictions one would get for a confirmed case only lasted for a number of months, making it not worth it for many people. I caught it and then had to get boosted again so I could be with my wife during the birth of our child. The regulations around this are luckily more lax in NRW, and there were (are?) other places in Germany where the father would not be allowed in the delivery room even with an up-to-date booster. Quite awful, in my opinion.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#685
post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are reading the wrong news sources then. So many European countries have changed their recommendations “after the fact” especially for children and young adults

And yet after asking repeatedly nobody can provide me a source where they have changed their minds after the fact about the first booster

The 1st booster was recommended to everyone, further boosters only to older population. In US (with the exception of Florida), further boosters are still recommended to 5+ (five year olds and up), while that's no longer the case in lots of countries. Or, you are implying the cited above sources were for the 1st booster as well and thus they haven't changed their minds?

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#686
post #254

Seems like this should have been a requirement before any emergency use authorization, and certainly before any mandates. The fact that this research is just now being done ought to be enough to immediately revoke the FDA emergency use authorizations and pull the product from the shelves. The covid vaccines have been a complete and utter disaster at every level. The erosion of trust in the institutions that are suppo…

No, that gets it totally backwards. The miniscule risks of the vaccine are blown out of proportion by bad reporting and people reading the statistics wrong. In converse: we should have skipped phase 3 trials (effectivity) and should have started vaccination after safety was approved. If anything the vaccination campaign has shown that sometimes acting fast can be tremendously helpful.

[dead]

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#687
post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The information at the time was the vaccine was massively impactful at reducing spread. They got that part wrong, but the decision to require vaccination was rational IMO. The decision didn't have a great result because the assumptions didn't hold. Good process, bad outcome. (Not to mention that if everyone had actually just gotten the shot, we might have stalled the viral evolution into the delta + subse…

“Good process, bad outcome.” And that is where I vehemently disagree. Bad process, bad outcome. Many people lied to make the information appear as you said. The incentives they had to lie should have a lot more scrutiny, rather than being shrugged off, and many of these people should be in jail.

How did you differentiate lies from inherent complexities in public health communication in a novel situation?

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#688
post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why would you know more about this than the next internet stranger? And again: becoming exposed to Covid without vaccination has even higher risk for myocarditis.

I'm chiming in to your intellectually lazy comment claiming any kind of myocardits being mild, so I can guarantee it's at least one internet stranger. Also, I never claimed being exposed to COVID without vaccination doesn't carry higher risk. It feels as though you are attempting some kind of HS debate class tactic here, so I'll give you an upvote for your efforts.

Well thank you. It was obviously intellectually lazy of me to say that the myocarditis in young people were mild without any qualifying term such generally. And indeed the German vaccine watchdog from which I was quoting from memory uses 'primarily mild' to describe the myocarditis cases identified to coincide with vaccination.

https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/dossier/coronavirus/coronavir...

Still I thing the whole thread of discussions shows that people are afraid of something which isn't such a big deal.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#689
post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many who blanket-praise the vaccine as you have, are doing so from a pre-existing "team sport" position on the subject. I'm not saying you are, but it's common. I live in a place which has the unfortunate claim of longest, harshest lockdown in the world (Victoria, Australia). Multiple lengthy lockdowns, curfews, masks outside enforced by cops, sitting on the beach was illegal, taking kids to park illegal; people were…

I'll cheer lead vaccines from a team sport position all day long; in this case I'm doing so from that perspective and from the perspective that the vaccine has shown to have a significant (order of magnitude) impact on death (etc, etc). I don't think it's totally unfair to call it 'underwhelming' though. We are so used to vaccines being wildly successful at stamping out a bunch of diseases that when something as viru…

All you've done is double-down on "lockdowns are worth it", and assigned slurs for those who called them draconian.

The pursuit of being a responsible citizen can cause people to find themselves in the red zone. Pushed by coercive campaigns designed to make you not only think and act a certain way, but also spread the message and attack those who disagree. It's fascinating stuff.

"Dipshit libertarians"? Wow. I do wonder where the line is, if any, for those loyal to whatever lockdown rules are enforced. 100 days at 2 hours of outdoor exercise per day? Or are you the ambassador of compliance, willing to sign on to 500 days lockdown, 9pm curfew, and 5km travel limit from home.

It so happens that one of those "dipshit libertarians" who used the word "draconian", is professor Adrian Esterman. He appeared on TV in Australia many times during the pandemic, encouraging vaccines and encouraging preventative measures. He promoted caution and safety every time. But even he used the word draconian in an interview to say "no, we don't need draconian lockdowns" when asked recently whether lockdowns are needed again.

> "Of course we have more COVID deaths than before"

What do you mean "of course"? If you're suggesting everything that has happened was expected, you'd be wrong. Experts have REPEATEDLY said the virus has surprised us and behaved in unpredictable ways. The increased deaths in Australia this year were NOT expected.

And finally, part of the data about vaccines saving lives, comes from the over-represented numbers of unvaccinated people ending up in hospital. Early on at least, this was repeated often, with the footnote jab "pandemic of the unvaccinated". While the statistic is generally accepted, there are many factors involved in why certain people end up in hospital with covid. You may not have considered that unvaccinated people were more likely to take LESS precautions in general. After all, they didn't bother getting vaccinated, even though they were in the high risk age group. So they wouldn't take precautions with social distance, or hand sanitizing, or reducing social events. Those who quickly got vaccinated however, would be more likely to be cautious - therefore stay at home, social distance, and generally avoid the virus. But was anything like this discussed in relation to higher representation in hospital? No way. Nothing like that was ever discussed because they were so focused on pro-vaccine messaging. All we were left with was "pandemic of the unvaccinated", and a large group-think onboarding of that message, the remnants of which still can be found in posts such as yours.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#690
post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It boggles my mind that despite inflicting obvious and severe harm on your very own kids, people still believe in "vaccines". Let alone $10k. Chances you kid would have gotten any troubles from covid are statistically absolutely negligible, given his age and hopefully absence of other illnesses. Now you can blame as anti-vaxxer and sorts, but at least I didn't get myocarditis.

> It boggles my mind that despite inflicting obvious and severe harm on your very own kids, people still believe in "vaccines". Let alone $10k. it boggles my mind that despite being plugged into an information network people can be this staggeringly ignorant about the wild success of vaccines

If you can call 15yo getting myocarditis a "wild success" I'll leave it to your conscience.

It's not a single separated case as you may want to counterargument.

A vaccine "wild success" is only attributable to financial statements for big pharma. This is really wild, I'll give you that

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