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Digital books wear out faster than physical books

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Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I cherish the sentiment I very much doubt it's shared by all content right holders and copyright lawyers. And it takes only a handful to disagree.

I think they put reasonable barriers to piracy. They are of course possible to circumvent, as every other barrier in existence, but you can also scan or make photocopies of a physical book. And this is actually a good thing. Mildly related: the other they I was watching something on Netflix on my phone and found something funny so I tried to take an screenshot to share with my friends, which quite frankly I think is…

> It didn't work because it seems that although I paid for my phone, it's not really my phone.

Root it.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#282

Physical books wear out in decades to centuries, computers break in years to decades. Also digital formats are constantly evolving and backwards compatibility for old formats is removed. Even without publisher/legal issues it's clear that preservation of digital media for even the next 10 years , and especially for the next 100 or 1000, is at risk. But I really wonder why is there no other major service like the Inte…

> Also digital formats are constantly evolving and backwards compatibility for old formats is removed. While that was certainly true at one time, Unicode text, HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere (or there'll be a collapse of society so thorough that print books are unlikely to survive, either). EPUB books are basically XHTML and XML zipped up along with any external assets (e.g., images). There are nuance…

> HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere (or there'll be a collapse of society so thorough that print books are unlikely to survive, either)

I very strongly disagree. The amount of technical overhead required to render a simple zipped XML from some storage medium is immense. Even if you store this on tape, you need a tape machine to read the bits. If you manage to pull this off, you won't get anything useful, because the XML is zipped. Deciphering a ZIP and translating it into bits which only make sense if you know that they represent binary numbers and must be read according to an obscure translation table (UTF-8) which is stored also digitally, someplace else, is more difficult than deciphering the enigma code, the hyroglyphs, and the Inca knot language combined. And even if you manage to pull off this unbelievable feat, you still require a parser, a renderer, a display or a printer to even get close to the possibility for a human to read it. For all of that, you not only need electricity, but the devices required are usually easily broken, and manufacturing them requires knowledge and a technical overhead (and also an amount of electricity) orders of magnitude larger than simply using them. Not to mention all the raw materials required to produce a display, a CPU, etc, which may simply be unavailable to future generations.

Now imagine humankind after a complete societal collapse. Tribe A finds, in some basement that survived the apocalypse, a collection of basic medical books. Tribe B finds, in another basement, an unlabeled hard disk containing the entire Wikipedia, as a zipped XML file. Which tribe is more likely to survive?

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#283
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but all of those deprecated elements can still be rendered just fine by some of the current browsers. And even if, say, you couldn't display an index page with frameset, then the stuff inside the frames is just plain old html files anyway, which you can display easily. bgcolor, etc. all still render fine in current browsers as well. The main thing is that information which is important to people will get convert…

> The main thing is that information which is important to people will get converted to newer formats over time, just as old print books get reprinted if they're popular. Vs. decent-quality old "dead tree" books, properly stored, can be ignored for centuries and still be perfectly fine. You might want to ask a good historian or librarian about all the incredibly important (historically, to us, now) documents which we…

> (And maintain off-site backups in case of fire at the Monastery, and ...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle_Encyclopedia

:(

For every important historical work we have, there are several more, at least as important, that we know we're missing. And presumably even more that we've never heard of.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#284

Physical books wear out in decades to centuries, computers break in years to decades. Also digital formats are constantly evolving and backwards compatibility for old formats is removed. Even without publisher/legal issues it's clear that preservation of digital media for even the next 10 years , and especially for the next 100 or 1000, is at risk. But I really wonder why is there no other major service like the Inte…

> Also digital formats are constantly evolving and backwards compatibility for old formats is removed. While that was certainly true at one time, Unicode text, HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere (or there'll be a collapse of society so thorough that print books are unlikely to survive, either). EPUB books are basically XHTML and XML zipped up along with any external assets (e.g., images). There are nuance…

Literally ANY digital format can be converted to a modern version fully automatically once the need arises. You need to solve the problem once, build a tool, and from that moment on you can convert as many files as you need with a single click. This is way cheaper and easier than dealing with paper rot and ink blended by acids from air and paper.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#286
post #228

Ever try reading an ebook you paid for 10 years ago? Probably a different experience. This question made me curious, and I took a look. The first Kindle book I ever bought was Shadow of a Dark Queen, by Raymond Feist, in December 2010. It still works just fine. (Now I wish it had been something more intellectual and respectable. But no, the first four Kindle books I got were the four books of the Serpentwar Saga.)

Couple of things to remember. Internet Archive is in the world scale. And you are already using a proprietary format with that book from 10 years ago. The post talks about keeping a tab on all the books available in Internet Archive. Which is a freaking huge number.

Then keep them all up to date available in at least a single format is a problem. Not to mention some books would only be available in epub, some only in pdf and some are just txt files. And users would want books to be available in certain formats too.

Keeping that number of books up to date from a librarian's POV (like internet archive) is really hard. The formats, the software etc. This is why they counter the marketing of publishers that says "digital copies are forever". They are not. There is server, hard disks, then the software of it all and a never ending dependency hell and issues like that. Just add security to the mix and then boom, it's already crazy hard.

Another intersting thought would be, can you try to keep all the digital books you own Into a multiple formats? Everything! The free ones you downloaded like the pdfs, the epubs and all the formats including probably the technical books you own. Try doing that. Then during a sale, you buy books from humble bundle and some books are only in pdfs. Uff. Now you need to make all those pdfs into mobi format so that you can read them in your kindle.

This effort for dealing with this and software needed for that should paint a good picture. Now scale it up to the whole world with multiple languages and bizillion editions and so many more complexities. :D

PS: I am not arguing. Just thought you might have overlooked the context. If I misjudged, my apologies. :)

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they put reasonable barriers to piracy. They are of course possible to circumvent, as every other barrier in existence, but you can also scan or make photocopies of a physical book. And this is actually a good thing. Mildly related: the other they I was watching something on Netflix on my phone and found something funny so I tried to take an screenshot to share with my friends, which quite frankly I think is…

> It didn't work because it seems that although I paid for my phone, it's not really my phone. Root it.

Not an option.

Rooting the device voids the warranty.

It's not a reasonable thing to ask the average person.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#288
This makes sense (ish) but I also think it's not an apples to apples comparison. Reprocessing into newer formats makes the digital copies more useful than physical books, not as useful. Adding metadata makes them more useful, not as useful. Backing up onto newer mediums, and just new drives, sure, but I'd love to know why backing up to something like AWS Glacier wouldn't be viable, and much cheaper than having a huge building and employing lots of people to run it and look after physical books.

(I love physical books, incidentally. Just don't love the comparison here.)

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#289

The huge difference is that digital data doesn't ever "wear out" - it might get lost or it might be in format that you don't know how to open on your current device - but it will never become partially unreadable or fragile like the physical media. Both of these problem are relatively easy to solve. It does cost money to make backups and do the format upgrades (or backup the old tools), but it generally costs a lot l…

Digital data doesn't wear out, but it also doesn't degrade gracefully. Usually if a printed page starts to degrade there is at least the opportunity for someone to notice and take corrective action before the content is lost completely (scanning, processing and re-printing, perhaps). Digital data tends to go from "fine" to "gone" with no middle ground.

That's what backups and RAID arrays are for. We certainly know by now how to build a redundancy that will guaranty the data safety. For most of the libraries it's really a budget problem - they've been given huge expensive buildings with controlled air conditions for storing paper books and that's sort of taken for granted, but then governments take cuts on providing them with proper IT infrastructure and knowledgeable staff for maintaining the digital data copies.

Re: Digital books wear out faster than physical books

#290
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also digital formats are constantly evolving and backwards compatibility for old formats is removed. While that was certainly true at one time, Unicode text, HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere (or there'll be a collapse of society so thorough that print books are unlikely to survive, either). EPUB books are basically XHTML and XML zipped up along with any external assets (e.g., images). There are nuance…

> HTML, XML, and ZIP files aren't going anywhere (or there'll be a collapse of society so thorough that print books are unlikely to survive, either) I very strongly disagree. The amount of technical overhead required to render a simple zipped XML from some storage medium is immense. Even if you store this on tape, you need a tape machine to read the bits. If you manage to pull this off, you won't get anything useful,…

I would argue that we shouldn't care about something in the extremely distant future, and what would be the second worst case scenario (the worst one being human extinction).

There's no way to really plan for it (prepping is a joke) and it slows down progress if we really do it.

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