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Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

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Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#271
post #270
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have they actually made a decent lead-free solder yet?

Yes. You just need to set your iron a fair bit hotter and learn to live with matte solder joints.

Also, typical lead-free solders oxidize in air at their soldering temperature much more readily than near-eutectic Pb-Sn at its respective soldering temp.

That oxide film tends to interfere pretty badly with wetting of surfaces being soldered. In other words - it's much easier to end up with a "dry" joint - even with adequately increased temperature - unless better and/or more flux is used.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So realistically, at the same scale of ore extraction as coal mining. How much power is available? This article estimates that regular supplies is enough for 230 years at the current rate of consumption: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-long-will-glo... If we triple the the number of plants, that would be approximately a 75 year lifetime for existing plants. Beyond that, the main directions to take wo…

I said realistically. And this decade. Not in some weird scifi scenario where we have enrichment facilities that are 10x more effective and efficient and you have the reprocessed waste before you start. Tripling generation by adding 600GW is nothing. 8 years. 2TWe net installed by the end of it and producing around 300GWe net of new capacity per year. Renewables are on track (and 2TW is extremely pessimistic). What's…

> 8 years.

8 years is barely enough to start changing course in how things like energy production is organized.

Is there a specific reason you insist on this kind of velocity? Global warming is going to gradually increase as a problem over the next 200 years, if we continue our current course, it's not like the world is ending in 2030. In fact, on our current trajectory, the truly hellish outcomes are not expected until around 2150-2250 (based in IPCC reports).

But precisely because it takes so long to change course, we need to start turning the ship now.

> Tripling generation by adding 600GW is nothing.

Watts is not a unit of energy, it's a unit of power. Peak capacity is not very interesting. What matters is actual production as well as the cost of producing the power when there is demand (including the cost of storage, if needed).

Nuclear produced 2.8TW last year, which is roughly identical to Solar+Wind. That's about 10% each. If we add hydro to this mix (currently 15%), we have a total of 35%. The depressing part is that this has been relatively constant since 1985, meaning we haven't made any progress over the last 37 years.

https://ourworldindata.org/electricity-mix

However, if we restart investments in nuclear, while continue our renewable investments, we may be able to triple both over the next 15-20 years. If hydro remains constant, we may produce enough energy to cover 75% of 2021 consumption by 2040 (which would perhaps be 50% of 2040 consumption). That should be enough to replace most fossil fuels for electricity in the EU+US, at least.

To reach such a level is highly non-trivial, both for nuclear and wind/solar. For nuclear, it means a u-turn is needed on several fronts, and for wind/solar, there are economic and geographic limitations (some areas are getting saturated).

For this plan and time horizon, there are plenty of uranium deposits that can be mined, perhaps most interestingly for western countries, a lot of this is in Australia and Canada.

If we restart construction of nuclear plants, we will also drive incentives to go looking for more sources elsewhere.

As for your "Peak Uranium" hypothesis, I suggest looking at the history for "Peak Oil". Oil was predicted to reach its peak in year 2000, but the reality is that production is still increasing. I would be very surprised if the same is not happening for uranium.

And as far as I can tell, we DO need it (or nuclear in some other form), if we're supposed ween ourselves off fossil fuels this century. Wind and solar may be competitive in some locations up to some production volumes, but they seem to have very diminishing returns above some level, due to storage costs and available land areas.

Maybe we can, some day, have solar panels carpeting the Sahara or even in Outer Space, but that's definitely scifi.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said realistically. And this decade. Not in some weird scifi scenario where we have enrichment facilities that are 10x more effective and efficient and you have the reprocessed waste before you start. Tripling generation by adding 600GW is nothing. 8 years. 2TWe net installed by the end of it and producing around 300GWe net of new capacity per year. Renewables are on track (and 2TW is extremely pessimistic). What's…

> 8 years. 8 years is barely enough to start changing course in how things like energy production is organized. Is there a specific reason you insist on this kind of velocity? Global warming is going to gradually increase as a problem over the next 200 years, if we continue our current course, it's not like the world is ending in 2030. In fact, on our current trajectory, the truly hellish outcomes are not expected un…

Net watts are a measure of average capacity and are not peak watts. TWh per year is a unit of net power. But you know this and you know the figures I was quoting were net because you know the output of the world's nuclear fleet and you know renewables are slightly higher.

Just as you said: renewables exceeded the nuclear fleet last year, growing by 50GW net. Production capacity is online for another 100GW net this coming year. China alone has an achievable plan for half a terawatt of new net production, and renewable targets have been consistently exceeded.

> Is there a specific reason you insist on this kind of velocity? Global warming is going to gradually increase as a problem over the next 200 years, if we continue our current course, it's not like the world is ending in 2030.

This kind of velocity is the pace the renewable industry is operating at, with a clear roadmap to meet the target, and the pace it is necessary to move at to avoid the worst outcomes.

If the nuclear industry can't scale to meet it, that's fine. We'll use the technologies that can.

> we may be able to triple both over the next 15-20 years.

So you're saying if we invest heavily in nuclear it may be able to contribute 5% of primary energy in 15 years? Wind is on track to triple in under half of that, solar in around a quarter. Both are on track to provide a meaningful portion of primary energy in 15-20 years.

> Nuclear produced 2.8TW

TWh. Which is around 320GW.

> As for your "Peak Uranium" hypothesis, I suggest looking at the history for "Peak Oil". Oil was predicted to reach its peak in year 2000,

And drilling has gotten more destructive and energy intensive ever since. Oil and gas platforms are resorting to using nuclear, solar, and wind to keep extracting because oil is not a sufficient energy source to extract oil. The predictions about the resources were accurate. The predictions that we'd lean into the insanity of continuing extracting ultra deep oil or tar sands when it's barely energy positive are where it went wrong.

> And as far as I can tell, we DO need it (or nuclear in some other form), if we're supposed ween ourselves off fossil fuels this century. Wind and solar may be competitive in some locations up to some production volumes, but they seem to have very diminishing returns above some level, due to storage costs and available land areas.

Very nice weasel words. I've never asserted that nuclear can't contribute, only that it cannot match the scale of renewables and suggesting we stop renewable investment to focus on it because only nuclear can scale is a blatant lie that serves only delay decarbonization. You've just reasserted that this is true. Thank you for agreeing.

> Maybe we can, some day, have solar panels carpeting the Sahara or even in Outer Space, but that's definitely scifi.

Revealing further that you can't comprehend how renewables scale. As a demonstration of how terrible a representation of scale this is:

World primary energy is about 17TW or 2kW per person. In the regions that 93% of people live, this takes under 50m^2 per person. There are a few cities like Milan with more people than sunlight, but there is enough space in Tokyo to provide this much net energy for every resident and still have plenty left over for outdoor spaces. The denser regions can import energy heavy goods, and still have enough space for electricity if they really didn't want to put a few shades up on some livestock farms.

Simply covering the space rendered uninhabitable by Inkai Uranium mine would provide more energy than the mine does.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#274

Aren’t they mostly silicon and recyclable metals? If so, who cares about the waste? It depends on what’s in the waste that matters, not its raw volume. The materials used in solar panels are both highly recyclable and environmentally benign, a great combination.

It's almost entirely glass, older panels have a variety of other materials, but new ones are about 3% silicon and 0.1-1% metals like Al, Cu and a tiny bit of Ag (which are all valuable enough to extract). And many countries have recycling laws like the WEEE. Commercialisation of circular economy concepts like making polysilicon panels from existing crushed mono or high purity poly panels is also happening.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#275
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make sure to include the effects of heavy metal poisoning, not just radiation. I'm a bit lazy. Maybe you have some numbers available for this? My guess is that deaths caused by this (associated with nuclear power), if at all measurable, would be orders of magnitude lower than deaths from the extraction and pollution associated with fossil fuels (Per GWh). > Here's a riddle. What fraction of world energy can 40,000t…

> My guess is that deaths caused by this (associated with nuclear power), if at all measurable, would be orders of magnitude lower than deaths from the extraction and pollution associated with fossil fuels (Per GWh). The competition isn't fossil fuels. Everyone wants to get rid of them. The competition is renewables.

> The competition is renewables.

When those regulations were introduced, the only renewables were hydro. And nobody was worried about the tiny amounts of radiations coming from coal plants, it was the soot that killed people.

Still, the "green" movement in Europe have been fighting nuclear power since at least the 80s, usually with more fervor than they've been fighting fossil fuels. The nuclear scare must have been easy to sell (and so an easy source of contributions), especially in the years after Chernobyl. With catastrophic effects both for the local environment and the climate.

Utopianists may indeed see nuclear as a threat to their dream of a perfect world. To me, nuclear is simply one of several energy sources with very low impact to the environment and climate, one that we _could_ have elected to produce at a low price. And still can.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#276
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My guess is that deaths caused by this (associated with nuclear power), if at all measurable, would be orders of magnitude lower than deaths from the extraction and pollution associated with fossil fuels (Per GWh). The competition isn't fossil fuels. Everyone wants to get rid of them. The competition is renewables.

> The competition is renewables. When those regulations were introduced, the only renewables were hydro. And nobody was worried about the tiny amounts of radiations coming from coal plants, it was the soot that killed people. Still, the "green" movement in Europe have been fighting nuclear power since at least the 80s, usually with more fervor than they've been fighting fossil fuels. The nuclear scare must have been…

Well good thing on river hydro is a separate category from renewables and noone is suggesting going back to it.

All of the examples of cheap nuclear power are ridden with corruption scandals and incredibly unreliable.

If you decide the CCP are suddenly trustworthy and ignore that finance and insurance have costs then the very limited fraction of nuclear power that can be produced might be both, but that doesn't make mining uranium any less horrific.

Cry bullying about the mean greens that have never been in power and only rarely held minority coalition positions just makes you look pathetic.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have any of those actually bred yes? do the research. you're making assertions you haven't done research on, apparently.........

I gave up responding to them because they can't even use the right units...

The SI unit for power (whether average or instantaneous) is Joules per second. Not Joules per second hours per year.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

billions of years of energy ? https://whatisnuclear.com/nuclear-sustainability.html#:~:tex... .

Failing to understand the distinction between power and energy doesn't make you seem very credible. And neither does saying failing to understand what a breeder is. You need fissile material to start a reactor of any kind. Working breeders with a real closed fuel cycle don't exist but if we pretend they do it's about 5 tonnes per GW. You can't start breeding until they're built and the breeding ratio of proposed desi…

They don't do it because fuel is so cheap, lol.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a breeder reactor?

It's something that's even more expensive than today's burner reactors (which is why people built burner reactors, not breeders). It's a way to limit the increase in cost of power from nuclear as uranium gets scarce. It's not a way to make nuclear energy cheaper than it is today. Why did you think that breeders are better than using hydrogen for long period smoothing of renewable/demand mismatch?

wow nuclear fuel is so plentiful it's cheaper to just burn it up? amazing

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have any of those actually bred yes? do the research. you're making assertions you haven't done research on, apparently.........

Which one? Or are you just lying?

??? which ones haven't? how do we know about the concept? have we ever tested it?
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