Ukraïnśka Latynka • Hacker News Board

Re: Ukraïnśka Latynka

#31

Post by valeg » Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 2:17 AM UTC

cerebellum wrote: post #27

valeg wrote: post #12

This issue was non existent before Feb 24 but now becomes really relevant. The Cyrillic script has weird origins (the first known chronicler in it was some Novgorod priest Upir Оfeigr; his first name sounds like "vampire"). The official story about Cyril and Methodius is an example of empire propaganda. Their Glagolitic alphabet has no relation to Cyrillic. So, no real value to keep the Cyrillic script other than imp…

"The Cyrillic script has weird origins" Not really. The Early Cyrillic alphabet was developed during the 9th century AD at the Preslav Literary School in the First Bulgarian Empire during the reign of tsar Simeon I the Great, probably by DISCIPLES of the two Byzantine brothers[6] Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius ( byzantine scholars from Thessaliniki), who had previously created the Glagolitic script. The Cyrillic scr…

>Modern scholars believe

Believe indeed. The origins are murky and it is not clear who was first in formulating the variant on which the modern Cyrillic script based. The script of Upir Оfeigr is surprisingly close to what in use today. There is an ongoing discussion to what exactly he refers as the Cyrillic original (most think that he rewrote from the Glagolitic original).

Re: Ukraïnśka Latynka

#32

Post by cheypen » Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 7:36 AM UTC

app4soft wrote: post #6

yeputons wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of them, you can choose in the settings: https://paiv.github.io/latynka/en/ Note that rules are different for different languages, even among those using Cyrillic. E.g. letter "г" is "h" in Ukrainian, but "g" in Russian. "И" in Russian is "i", which is a letter on its own in Ukrainian, while Ukrainian "И" is transliterated to "y".

FTR, SSOU 9112:2021 (ukr. "DSTU 9112:2021", transl. "DSTU 9112:2021") is a an actual official State Standard of Ukraine for official transliteration: > From 01.04.2022, the national standard DSTU 9112: 2021 comes into force: «Cyrillic-Latin transliteration and Latin-Cyrillic retransliteration of Ukrainian texts. Writing rules». The standard was proposed and developed by specialists of the State Scientific and Technic…

Thanks, much appreciated.

Re: Ukraïnśka Latynka

#33

Post by amai » Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

valeg wrote: post #12

This issue was non existent before Feb 24 but now becomes really relevant. The Cyrillic script has weird origins (the first known chronicler in it was some Novgorod priest Upir Оfeigr; his first name sounds like "vampire"). The official story about Cyril and Methodius is an example of empire propaganda. Their Glagolitic alphabet has no relation to Cyrillic. So, no real value to keep the Cyrillic script other than imp…

"The Cyrillic script has weird origins"

I heard the story goes that a drunk monk mixed latin and greek letters and thereby created the new alphabet.

Re: Ukraïnśka Latynka

#34

Post by pornel » Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

bcatanzaro wrote: post #7

This will never happen, but I wish we could go the other direction and write Polish and Czech/Slovak in Cyrillic. They would be so much easier to read! SZCZ is only one letter!

Polish works fine with the latin alphabet. It has some spelling oddities (like ż and rz sounding the same, but with different spelling due to grammar and historical reasons), but such quirks could be fixed within latin alphabet — if there was a will to change anything at all.

Poland has been under Russian occupation for a big chunk of its history, so politically Cyrillic has no chances.

Re: Ukraïnśka Latynka

#35

Post by paiv » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 8:49 PM UTC

Hi, the author of the tool here.

The tool was created five years ago, when there were no Ukrainian national standard to represent Ukrainian language unambiguously in Latin letters (known as romanization, and applies to all languages).

Most commonly you need romanization of person and place names, and the currently in use standard for this is not faithful to Cyrillic source. In my view, we can't have proper name romanization without romanization of the language as a whole, and wide adoption of that romanization. The simplest criteria to choose such a system is the ease of reading pages of transliterated texts.

Thus I made a tool where you can compare historical and modern attempts at such romanization systems, or create your own and join the discussion.

Since then, there is now new Ukrainian national standard ДСТУ 9112:2021, which adequately represents Ukrainian Cyrillic (to new learners: here j is used for palatalized consonants: Zelensjkyj u Ljvovi). The search is over, and this standard will be gradually adopted in the coming years. Expect another campaign KyïvNotKyivNotKiev (Kyïv = Kyjiv).

This tool remains useful in many ways. I personally have it enabled on many sites.

Would Ukrainian be better off dropping Cyrillic for Latin? If we had started with Latin, then sure, Ukraine historically is tightly connected with the rest of the Europe, and it would have been easier having only Latin. But we have Cyrillic history, and to counter that there is no enough reasons to switch.

As others mentioned, the tool does not handle Russian Cyrillic. Well true, because it was created exclusively for the Ukrainian Cyrillic, not any Cyrillic.

Thank you for your patience and support.

https://paiv.github.io/latynka/