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'Be' is nice, end of story

abortretry.fail

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Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#71
post #59

The thing I loved most about BeOs is that it assumed you were a competent operator. They didn't hide "dangerous" settings from the user. For example, in the settings you could choose to turn each CPU in the machine on and off. But it didn't stop you from turning all of them off. And if you turned the last one off, the system halted, just as you'd expect. No warnings, nothing that stopped you. If you thought turning o…

> No warnings, nothing that stopped you.

I'm not sure I follow why this is a good thing. Having the option is good, but some sort of a sanity check and a warning dialog just seems like looking out for your users.

For example, I recently used Linux on the desktop as my daily driver and wrote about my experiences [1]. At one point, I considered that the system was perhaps a bit of a mess in regards to the installed packages and, not wanting to do a clean reinstall, I figured that I'd just reinstall Python in particular.

There's nothing mystifying about running an apt remove command, nor is there anything outrageous about the idea of removing some software and then later reinstalling it. However, as it turns out, this would probably break certain parts of the system, so I got a helpful warning instead:

  After this operation, 1 244 MB disk space will be freed.
  You are about to do something potentially harmful.
  To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'
By that time I had already entered "y" and pressed enter, not bothering to read the message, since the rest of the prompt looked like it normally would, so instead I got this output:

  Abort.
And nothing broke. I think systems should look out more for the users like that, which would give the OS less of a bad reputation.

Of course, it won't always save you, like Linus from LTT still ignored such a warning and ruined his install somewhat [2].

[1] https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/a-week-of-linux-instead-of-...

[2] https://youtu.be/0506yDSgU7M?t=634

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#72

This is a really interesting phrasing: >> There were problems within Apple that made the development of the OS nearly impossible, and to solve these problems Apple sought to purchase something that was close to their own vision. I think the truth is that Apple, and Apple + IBM worked on operating systems in this period and had trouble making a good one. Why it is hard for a mature company with legacy systems to creat…

> Why it is hard for a mature company with legacy systems to create a new operating system is a difficult thing to explain.

My theory is that you can't really _plan_ how to create and spread an OS: You need to put a dedicated enough person with enough time to write an interesting prototype that would brings you a subsequent advantage. And of course, you need the peoples that will judge wisely about the long run future of this prototype (remember Linux being considered bad?). After this, the prototype have to be mature enough for developers to and hardware makers to support it.

That's a lot of _if_, and I suspect most OS (and in some way, softwares and language) are spontaneous creations that answer a need and become _good_ as a consequence of being used.

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#73
post #27

BeFS was amazing. I miss BeOS, TBH. I ran a heavily customized BeOS R5.05 install that had upgraded bits from OpenBeOS (later, HaikuOS), ZetaOS etc. I ran it as a daily driver on a Dell GX1 SFF that I swear was designed for BeOS: Max RAM the BeOS kernel supported without hackery was 768MB - The GX maxed out at 768MB; The GX1 had a Rage GPU that BeOS natively supported (Including 3D Acceleration!) which was a very sho…

You daily-drove a NeXTstation until 2008?! That's badass! kudos. I always appreciate people using stuff for as long as possible, especially when it's something awesome like a NeXT system, haha :) Dude.. just found the "for ebay" album on your Flickr profile... omg :( (Oooh also SGI Onyx2.. nice. I search the term "sgi" on Craigslist every day. All I have is a pair of O2's)

That is indeed incredbible, my graduation thesis was porting my supervisors' particle engine from Objective-C/OpenGL into C++/OpenGL/MFC, because his NeXT Cube was going to be decommissioned. This was still during the 1990's.

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#74
post #40

> From there, things only got worse for Be. The company lingered around until 2001 when it sold its copyrights to Palm for $11 million USD. In 2002, Be brought litigation against Microsoft for anticompetitive practices, but the suit was settled out of court for $23.25 million. After purchasing BeOS, Palm promptly discontinued the OS. Palm itself later had some problems, split, and sold. The rights to BeOS are now in…

Apple had a much bigger market. They had problems with mismanagement to be sure but every designer, many authors and photographers, tons of schools, etc. had Macs on their desks. That gave them enough revenue to get a new OS out the door, and the industrial design on the iMac and Titanium PowerBook were enough to keep sales up during the bridge period. I worked on an internet appliance using BeOS around 2000. The dev…

Not for Portuguese designer, many authors and photographers, tons of schools,...

We only had one Apple official reseller store in Lisbon for the whole country, and outside a couple of university labs and companies with headquarters on the capital, they were only seen on computer magazines.

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#75

This is a really interesting phrasing: >> There were problems within Apple that made the development of the OS nearly impossible, and to solve these problems Apple sought to purchase something that was close to their own vision. I think the truth is that Apple, and Apple + IBM worked on operating systems in this period and had trouble making a good one. Why it is hard for a mature company with legacy systems to creat…

It is easier to achieve your architectural goals with greenfield development than modifying an existing system. However.. once you have an existing system, why are you going to throw the whole thing out, waste all those man-hours spent to make the thing, discard all the bugfixes you had to sweat over. It is very hard for a large organization to justify making something new.

It is the reason IBM had to set up a secret ninja tiger team to make the pc. They tried a few times before, and ended up with really nice systems, far nicer than the pc. but they cost 10,000 dollars, in 1980, you are not gong to conquer the small business market for computers with a 10,000 dollar machine. so they set up a secret team, far away from the rest of the ibm mothership apparatus with the mission to make the cheapest computer possible, and they did, it cost 3,000 dollars had nothing compatible with any other ibm and sold like hotcakes.

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#76

I worked on Haiku this summer as part of Google summer of code, and it just made me wish their attitude towards user experience was more prevalent in mainstream OSs. It's little things like errors automatically prompting you to open a graphical debugger or processes being grouped by application. There's sensible UX that doesn't expect me to be a wizard to understand what's going on or how to dig deeper. Obviously it…

> It's little things like errors automatically prompting you to open a graphical debugger or processes being grouped by application. I think after Windows 7 the processes are grouped per application in Task Manager. We’re all grumpy about the redesigns of things we are familiar with, but little UX improvements happen all the time.

I wish they would just put ProcessExplorer there instead...

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#77

Im itching for a simple OS that is user friendly and just simple, something that would instant boot and would be functional offline. Linux is great and all but sometimes it feels too bloated for a simple limited purpose machine..

The era of these type of "simple" OSes has come to an end. Linux is now the king of hardware support and nothing out there can even try to compete, not even Windows. And "consumer" hardware support is getting harder and harder; we did not really improve the situation at all from the 90s. Linux drivers, while some of them are not proprietary (before you ask: Android drivers are mostly proprietary), are still inseparably linked to Linux itself, which means that for any non-Linux OS to succeed you first have to reimplement Linux.

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#78
post #59

The thing I loved most about BeOs is that it assumed you were a competent operator. They didn't hide "dangerous" settings from the user. For example, in the settings you could choose to turn each CPU in the machine on and off. But it didn't stop you from turning all of them off. And if you turned the last one off, the system halted, just as you'd expect. No warnings, nothing that stopped you. If you thought turning o…

> No warnings, nothing that stopped you. I'm not sure I follow why this is a good thing. Having the option is good, but some sort of a sanity check and a warning dialog just seems like looking out for your users. For example, I recently used Linux on the desktop as my daily driver and wrote about my experiences [1]. At one point, I considered that the system was perhaps a bit of a mess in regards to the installed pac…

About Linus, I've migrated some people to Debian purely because they managed to fuck up the Ubuntu (or one of its flavours) upgrade somehow... and those were not linux-illiterate people. I dunno what it is but Ubuntu have weirdly higher rate of fuckups on upgrade than we've seen with Debian. Hell, it even survived that one time one of our admins upgraded by 2 releases of debian at once...

Might be conjecture based on small sample size I have for Debian, but what Linus was doing shouldn't really fuck anything up... Steam package in Debian "just installed"

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#79
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's little things like errors automatically prompting you to open a graphical debugger or processes being grouped by application. I think after Windows 7 the processes are grouped per application in Task Manager. We’re all grumpy about the redesigns of things we are familiar with, but little UX improvements happen all the time.

I wish they would just put ProcessExplorer there instead...

process explorer is a lot too much for an average Windows user, I would think. it's dead easy to obtain if you want it, though.

Re: 'Be' is nice, end of story

#80

Even now over 20 years later we still haven't had anything near as cool as BeFS. Who needs an email client when the file system can literally index it all and your inbox and email messages are literally files in a folder in a Tracker window that's just displaying email specific metadata for its columns.

multiple comments about BeFS and none describe why it is so good.
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