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Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

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Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#231
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burning fuel at a single power station that is reasonably distant from populated areas is far better from a health perspective than tens of thousands of small, poorly-regulated engines burning fuel within 10 yards of people's homes. I would take electric over ICE even if it were 1-to-1 on fuel consumption, just to feel like I can safely breath outside again.

As long as they're still cars, you should keep holding your breath. Tires and breaks still give off the polluting dust, not to mention the noise

Regenerative breaking significantly decreases break pads use.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#232
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because CdTe is actually a stable molecule that isn’t water soluble, turns out the problem of panels from a toxic leeching perspective is largely from the small amounts of lead used at soldering points which is a common point with most silicon PV panels. No reason tin can’t be used instead/lead free panels can’t be made except for the saving of a few pennies by skimping on the solder - no regulations to ensur…

Have they actually made a decent lead-free solder yet?

Nope.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current price of nuclear power in the US and Europe is almost entirely due to overregulation combined with decades of dwindling expertise, with a sprinkle of corruption on top. If we remove this regulatory sabotage, nuclear energy can be produced at about ~$30-40/MWh [1] (At 3% discount rate, and in the case of the US/Europe with the assumption that excessive regulation is scaled back a notch.). If we build enoug…

> The current price of nuclear power in the US and Europe is almost entirely due to overregulation And here I thought it was actually due to the manufacturers living in Fuckupstan, not being able to build their products at costs they had promised. The recent French experience with the EPR is astoundingly bad. Of course that cost could be lower if any screwup could be excused by greasing the appropriate regulatory pal…

> Ultimately, the pronuclear antiregulatory position boils down to "why don't you just suck it up and let us subject you to more radiation, which really isn't bad?

Well, actually, yes. Coal plants cause 100 times more radiation than nuclear plants per unit of energy produced:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-...

And typical background radiation is 10x more than even that.

And this is for plants built in the 1970s. Tightening requirements beyond that while still allowing coal power to continue their emissions, was completely absurd.

> You do not have the contrafactual evidence of what nuclear safety would be like without that regulation.

To the contrary. Most nuclear power in existence is still produced by plants that was built BEFORE many of the excessive regulations were put into place. That's part of the reason they were so much cheaper to build. (I'm not making an argument for building Chernobyl type plants, but rather plants with safetly levels corresponding to those built in the 70s in Western countries.)

> LNT hypothesis for radiation effects

The LNT hypothesis has little to no evidence supporting it over a null hypothesis that radiation below a threshold of about 80 mSv/y. Which is based on statistics for huge groups of people. And the typical radiation received per year from living next to a nuclear plant is around 0.001 mSv/y, 80000 less than the amount where we have any data to indicate that the exposure is harmful.

If you have 1 xray taken in a hospital, that's as much radiation exposure as living next to a nuclear plant for 100 years. If you have a CT scan, that's like 1000 to 10000 years. Or, if you fly from LA to NY, you get 0.035 mSv of radiation, the same as 35 years. Do a round trip, and it corresponds to a lifetime.

Whether or not you believe in the unfalsifiable hypothesis called LNT, the risk from nuclear power is incredibly tiny compared to ANYTHING we do.

Meanwhile, the potential benefits of cheap nuclear power would be massive, both in terms of local air polution (when it becomes cheap enough to replace coal and natural gas), economical benefits or global warming mitigation.

And it has a proven track record. France was able to almost completely cut fossil fuels for their electricity production over a few years, with a moderate investment into nuclear. Meanwhile, Germany has spent 100s of billions of € on "renewable" energy, but has almost as high percentage of their electricity produced coming from fossil fuels now as when they started. (They did have some reduction in CO2 emissions due to moving from coal to natural gas, at the cost of becoming highly dependent on Russia)

> You're being so unfair! ... whining about the LNT hypothesis....

This kind of emotional response makes it seem that something else is at stake.

Of course, if we were able to provide clean air and stop global warming using nuclear energy, some people would lose their jobs, both people selling other forms of energy (fossil, wind, solar) or people working for "environmentalist" organizations or political parties.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current price of nuclear power in the US and Europe is almost entirely due to overregulation And here I thought it was actually due to the manufacturers living in Fuckupstan, not being able to build their products at costs they had promised. The recent French experience with the EPR is astoundingly bad. Of course that cost could be lower if any screwup could be excused by greasing the appropriate regulatory pal…

> Ultimately, the pronuclear antiregulatory position boils down to "why don't you just suck it up and let us subject you to more radiation, which really isn't bad? Well, actually, yes. Coal plants cause 100 times more radiation than nuclear plants per unit of energy produced: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-... And typical background radiation is 10x more than even that. And this is for pl…

> If you have 1 xray taken in a hospital, that's as much radiation exposure as living next to a nuclear plant for 100 years.

Now do living near Serpent river, or Church Hill, or Kadapa, or Ranger or Mailuu-Suu or the cumulative worldwide effect if we got 15% of our power from a reprpcessing facility like La Hague. Make sure to include the effects of heavy metal poisoning, not just radiation. Also would you like to replace your drinking water with aquifer water from Inkai?

> the potential benefits of cheap nuclear power would be massive

Here's a riddle. What fraction of world energy can 40,000t of fissile material provide and for how long? Where do you propose to get more?

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#235
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- you cannot have 100% renewable power grid because unpredictable production (you can, some countries do - for example Costarica and many countries are very close - for example Portugal and Norway - but it creates different problems than the traditional powerplants - but there are ways to solve this which are getting ever more economically viable - citing data from 10 years ago is about as sensible as citing CPU tra…

Traditional powerplants are big nation-scale projects measured in decades and cannot be moved mid-lifecycle - unlike solar panels. They are also strictly dependent on running water for cooling. In my country (Poland) there has been a week few years back where some powerplants had to shut down because nearby rivers were too low and the water temperature was too high to cool down the powerplants (you cannot heat the wa…

sorry but your comment shows that you obviously haven't looked into this stuff and are just spewing whatever headlines you've read.

a week a few years back.. that doesn't sound too bad honestly and looks like something you can prepare for on future project. i know that Poland had just greenlit two huge nuclear power plants which i think it's a great idea, wish we would do the same in my country.

there's simply no such thing as a grid scale battery. it doesn't exist and never will work current technology. the batteries in Australia are not what you think they are, in reality they're there to fix another huge problem with renewables which is frequency leveling and NOT to provide power when there's no renewable energy for which it would be good for a whooping 8 minutes. So.. the only viable way is to go with what's called power2x where you can create hydrogen, ammonia or something else, this process however it's quite inefficient requiring you too install around 7 times the capacity you need, as well building new infrastructure and power plants to use these synthetic fuels, this might still be a bit cheaper than nuclear, but we actually don't know that yet.

it's also not a solution to just build insane overcapacity??? are you really suggesting we go several hours a day or even weeks without electricity?? i live in a country where we've give all in on wind and let me tell you.. it's freaking annoying to have to look up the current price to see if you should turn on the washing machine, charge your car etc. and it's simply not true that houses in central Europe can stay comfortably hot more than a day during winter.

to be honest you sound very out of touch, but i guess that's what happen when you make a good developer salary and live in a cheap country. if your house can really stay warm more than a day in winter and still have fresh air to breath you must live in a high tech mansion.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, the pronuclear antiregulatory position boils down to "why don't you just suck it up and let us subject you to more radiation, which really isn't bad? Well, actually, yes. Coal plants cause 100 times more radiation than nuclear plants per unit of energy produced: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-... And typical background radiation is 10x more than even that. And this is for pl…

> If you have 1 xray taken in a hospital, that's as much radiation exposure as living next to a nuclear plant for 100 years. Now do living near Serpent river, or Church Hill, or Kadapa, or Ranger or Mailuu-Suu or the cumulative worldwide effect if we got 15% of our power from a reprpcessing facility like La Hague. Make sure to include the effects of heavy metal poisoning, not just radiation. Also would you like to re…

> Make sure to include the effects of heavy metal poisoning, not just radiation.

I'm a bit lazy. Maybe you have some numbers available for this? My guess is that deaths caused by this (associated with nuclear power), if at all measurable, would be orders of magnitude lower than deaths from the extraction and pollution associated with fossil fuels (Per GWh).

> Here's a riddle. What fraction of world energy can 40,000t of fissile material provide and for how long? Where do you propose to get more?

There is around 40 trillion tons of uranium in Earth's crust. How much of that we can utilize, depends on how much we're willing to pay for the extraction. The current fuel price (after processing) is about $5/MWh, and reserve estimates are based on that price. Should fuel prices go up a bit, more mines and excavations will be profitable.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that it's also more radioactive than nuclear waste: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-...

And banana plantations (or granite mountains, or the sun) are more radioactive than both because you have a lot of bananas with weak radioactivity each one, but the sum of all bananas in fruit shops is not how we measure radioactivity danger. Coal is accumulated and relatively low, nuclear is concentrated and can reach several orders of magnitude more. Really, is not so useful to compare both cases except for whatabo…

> Coal is accumulated and relatively low, nuclear is concentrated and can reach several orders of magnitude more. Really, is not so useful to compare both cases except for whataboutism.

That's nice but you still have to wear a dosimeter around fly ash.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drove there down a southern road in 2010 past a long row of rusting windmills. I have not been back since then, so I don't know the current condition. I saw many near the southern-most point. What are your thoughts on a site reclamation bond before construction?

As long as it's indexed off actual decomissioning costs somehow and not just a wind-tax (and similarly doesn't massively underfund like the nuclear decommisioning levy) I think it's an excellent idea. We shouldn't let utilities get away with shit just because it's not fossil fuels.

I don't know details about nuclear decommisioning. In my experience, State permitting standards for decommissioning bonds have been implemented as part of mine permitting and oil and gas permitting. I would like to see more people getting their States to be proactive on all of this: mines wells tires PV iDevices.

The laboratory of States will find and create solutions, without a one-size-fits-none federal mandate.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a recent study showed 6 out of 11 panels or something maintained 80% of its original capacity after 30 years. As long as technological disruption does not deem replacement as a no brainer economically, I am sure quite a few panels may produce energy for 30 to 40 years.

Assuming that my panels are say 50%/40%/30% as efficient in 20 years time, why not keep them plugged in anyway? Its not like they are an old car or something where the decrease in efficiency uses more energy / pumps out more emmisions. The only resource they are using is roof space.

As long as the inverter keeps working, you are right; you still get some (reduced) benefit for just letting them run.

At some point the inverter (a separate box, usually inside the house) will fail and need to be replaced. At that point you'd have to balance the price of a new inverter vs. the expected return of energy from the panels.

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