Live data from Hacker News

Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

fastcompany.com

11–20 of 290 posts

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#11
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should expect monstrous amounts of FUD about anything that replaces fossil fuels.

On HN I find it precisely the opposite - if you point out flaws with solar, electric cars, wind, self driving cars, etc. you take a lot of downvotes

Only when the “flaws” are in the form of “lol what do you think your electric car is charged with?! (mic drop)”.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#12
post #4

It’s a story similar to nuclear power, where people found it wasn’t that hard to extend the life of nuclear reactors a lot longer than originally planned.

One should expect monstrous amounts of FUD about anything that replaces fossil fuels.

Honestly, at this point in our hyperpartisan world, I expect monsterous FUD about pretty much anything. There was just a small scale war in my city about a proposal to slightly modify the way our library is funded. If that gets people riled up, then one can only imagine what multi trillion dollar industries can stir up.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#13
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should expect monstrous amounts of FUD about anything that replaces fossil fuels.

On HN I find it precisely the opposite - if you point out flaws with solar, electric cars, wind, self driving cars, etc. you take a lot of downvotes

It may also be because those flaws are trite comments with clear answers that just get repeated in a meme-like fashion. I cannot tell you how many people I say that are worried about ranging anxiety, for example, but go on maybe one long trip per year.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#14
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should expect monstrous amounts of FUD about anything that replaces fossil fuels.

On HN I find it precisely the opposite - if you point out flaws with solar, electric cars, wind, self driving cars, etc. you take a lot of downvotes

One of the reasons is that a lot of these downsides are overplayed, based on long-obsolete data or false altogether.

For some examples:

- electric cars are still burning fossil fuels cause powerplants burn fossil fuels (yeah, but electric cars go ~2 times further on 1 liter of fuel even if all our power came from fossil fuels which it doesn't)

- rare earth minerals are limited which means we can't have everybody drive electric cars (rare earth minerals aren't THAT rare, for example lithium is more common than lead on Earth, the current availability is a function of past investment which is based on past demand - when demand grows quickly the infrastructure lags and you get temporary price hikes, also there are alternatives)

- batteries/solar cells can't be recycled (they can, there's just not enough demand right now because we're at the exponential growth phase so the used batteries/solar panels are very small percentage of the currently-in-use batteries/solar panels)

- you cannot have 100% renewable power grid because unpredictable production (you can, some countries do - for example Costarica and many countries are very close - for example Portugal and Norway - but it creates different problems than the traditional powerplants - but there are ways to solve this which are getting ever more economically viable - citing data from 10 years ago is about as sensible as citing CPU transitor counts from 1990s when talking about designing a new graphic card)

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#15
post #5

>The report projected that the United States would have a cumulative total of 7.5 to 10 million metric tons of solar panel waste in 2050. This compares to 292 million tons of total landfill waste in 2018 alone [1], putting solar panel waste on the order of 0.1% of total waste produced in the US between now and 2050. [1] https://www.epa.gov/facts-and-figures-about-materials-waste-...

Note that this figure is from the 2016 EPA report which the article claims (based on a new paper) may be overblown.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#17
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should expect monstrous amounts of FUD about anything that replaces fossil fuels.

On HN I find it precisely the opposite - if you point out flaws with solar, electric cars, wind, self driving cars, etc. you take a lot of downvotes

Personally, I think both ends of these conversations could see improvement. A lot of people on here are rich and well-to-do so if you tell them the thing they bought for $45-$90k is more of a luxury than an environmental benefit or investment they'll get upset. Likewise, when rich people tell everyone their flatulents don't stink but others do, it'll make people upset, especially if the price tag to non-stinking-flatulents is high.

Civility and mutual respect tend to go a lot farther than "just facts".

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#18
post #6

>If solar panels can last 40 to 50 years, which is roughly double what used to be the rule of thumb for their life span Presumably, these panels face ever diminishing efficiencies. What is the threshold where it makes sense to replace a working, but low efficiency panel with a new one? That is, if a field of ancient generation-1 panels is operating at 5% efficiency, is it worth the expense to tear them out and replac…

That’s a good question. Setting aside climate change and fossil fuel issues, the general answer is something like when the present value of a new installation, minus installation cost, is greater than the present value of the existing installation. Estimation can’t be precise but after 20 or 25 years, the homeowner will have some idea of the remaining efficiency they’re dealing with. They might know the reliability of their inverters, too.

The replacement installation should be cheaper since initial permitting and electrical hookup is in place, and the roof mount might be reusable.

Tax incentives to modernize old solar installations will factor significantly.

Put another way: how high did your electric bill have to be to justify installing panels in the first place?

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#19
Recycling solar panels is tough because glass fines are created, often inseparable from items that adhere to them. Those fines don't currently have secondary demand and they're a health and possibly environmental hazard. The CAPEX for recycling panels is high because size reduction and separation requires expensive (and expensive to maintain) equipment. I expect companies like American Battery Recycling, et. al., to tackle this waste stream on as a natural adjunct to their battery recycling operations/systems. I'm not as optimistic that the waste won't be as bad as once thought because I envision the price of new panels to continue to fall, while efficiency increases. Could be a secondary market emerges for the old panels, but I'm skeptical.

Re: Solar panel waste may not be as bad as we thought

#20
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On HN I find it precisely the opposite - if you point out flaws with solar, electric cars, wind, self driving cars, etc. you take a lot of downvotes

One of the reasons is that a lot of these downsides are overplayed, based on long-obsolete data or false altogether. For some examples: - electric cars are still burning fossil fuels cause powerplants burn fossil fuels (yeah, but electric cars go ~2 times further on 1 liter of fuel even if all our power came from fossil fuels which it doesn't) - rare earth minerals are limited which means we can't have everybody driv…

> lithium is more common than lead on Earth

Lithium isn't a rare earth mineral.

Post reply on HN