I'm starting to think LEGO is evil • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#111

Post by philwelch » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

oz wrote: post #80

" But if they’ve become toys marketed to a single gender, then we’re just reproducing the already awful gender imbalance in STEM education and employment." Why is it we never hear anyone decrying the 'awful gender imbalance' in Human Resources, Nursing and Teaching?

Because when women dominate the workplace, it's "The End of Men" (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-...) and reason for smug, thinly-veiled gloating. Also, men can't be teachers because we're all pedophiles.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#112

Post by billpatrianakos » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #3

As a girl geek who grew up on Legos, this makes me really, really sad. From the NPR article linked to from the article above: "Lego also consciously aimed for boy customers when it embarked on its stunning turnaround. Boys were easier to sell to than girls." headsmash "The new Lego girl minifigures have names like Stephanie, Olivia, and Emma, and the building sets include a veterinary clinic, a hairdressing salon, a…

Why do we need more girl scientists and geeks? I'll never get that. Will having more women in roles traditionally held by men somehow make the world better? Will the woman scientist have a better chance at curing cancer? Will the woman construction worker lay better brick?

I just don't get it. It seems like there's a subset of women who are into science and are smart and are going after or currently holding roles that are traditionally held by or usually dominated by men who for some reason want every other woman to be into the same things because somehow it's for the betterment of the world. If women and men really are equal (and I can't and won't say women are any less capable) then a woman doing "man work" shouldn't produce any different result.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#113

Post by fennecfoxen » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

sunahsuh wrote: post #94

maximusprime wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume people want a change. I do not think they do. Do people want an end to gender specific toys? Certainly some do. But the vast majority do not. I firmly believe, through interacting with people in general, and my own children, that female and male brains are completely different. They are hard wired to like different things, and behave differently. I don't see anything wrong with that, and don't see any reas…

I take massive issue with this. We start the training with regard to gender so early that it's hard to tell what's "nature" and what's "nurture". I'm watching the choices my sister makes during her pregnancy with fascination. Gender is the earliest thing we bombard them with -- painting rooms pink, buying gendered clothes, choosing certain toys.. we don't even thinking about it because it's so normal until, for insta…

So here's a news story about twin boys, one of whom decided he'd rather be a girl. Pretty much essentially the same "nurture". Still want to blame society when the girl decides she wants to wear pretty dresses? I think that's a hard sell.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2011/12/11/led-child-who-si...

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#114

Post by maximusprime » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:46 PM UTC

sunahsuh wrote: post #94

maximusprime wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume people want a change. I do not think they do. Do people want an end to gender specific toys? Certainly some do. But the vast majority do not. I firmly believe, through interacting with people in general, and my own children, that female and male brains are completely different. They are hard wired to like different things, and behave differently. I don't see anything wrong with that, and don't see any reas…

I take massive issue with this. We start the training with regard to gender so early that it's hard to tell what's "nature" and what's "nurture". I'm watching the choices my sister makes during her pregnancy with fascination. Gender is the earliest thing we bombard them with -- painting rooms pink, buying gendered clothes, choosing certain toys.. we don't even thinking about it because it's so normal until, for insta…

I expected people would take issue with it. Unfortunately some people really really want it to be the case that girls and boys are only different because of their environment.

Given the way evolution works, doesn't that seem ridiculously unlikely?

Given the way we evolved to have clearly defined roles, and how we have obvious physical differences to enable that, doesn't it seem pretty obvious that we evolved our brain power differently also? eg men lots of brain power for spacial awareness for hunting etc.... women caring nuturing, far more brain power for language, communication etc

The other funny thing is that it's usually the same set of people who firmly believe that you are born homosexual, and that you can't be made homosexual by your upbringing. They believe sexual orientation to be biological. But at the same time claim that being 'girl' or 'boy' is something that you've been taught by culture??

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#115

Post by seagreen » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:47 PM UTC

I'd like to make a point that applies to some (but by no means all) of the comments above. Outrage isn't a very useful emotion. It's become the default emotion for things like this because politicians like to keep people in a state of frothy indignation. That's carried over to the rest of our culture but it's not a good thing.

Resolve is a much better emotion than outrage. What can I do to encourage better behavior? Buying good LEGO sets as presents for children and evangelizing about LEGO to friends spring immediately to mind. Or maybe getting involved with the 3D printing movement.

In summary, I'm suspicious that alternating between "intellectual curiosity" and "resolving to take action" is a much better way of reading articles on the internet than the alternate strategy of alternating intellectual curiosity and outrage.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#116

Post by chaostheory » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:49 PM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #3

As a girl geek who grew up on Legos, this makes me really, really sad. From the NPR article linked to from the article above: "Lego also consciously aimed for boy customers when it embarked on its stunning turnaround. Boys were easier to sell to than girls." headsmash "The new Lego girl minifigures have names like Stephanie, Olivia, and Emma, and the building sets include a veterinary clinic, a hairdressing salon, a…

It's really sad, but it wasn't that long ago that Lego was in deep financial trouble with horrible sales. Geeks can say what they want, but it seems to have worked out for Lego pretty well

On the bright side, you can make your own custom Lego set: http://designbyme.lego.com/en-us/Default.aspx

There's more time and money involved but if it's really important to people, if there's a will there's a way.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#117

Post by mml » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:50 PM UTC

CountHackulus wrote: post #56

amirmc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed that some of new Lego sets have very specific pieces. Not really the kind you can mix and match between sets as in the 'old days'.

This kind of thing was popular during the LEGO "dark ages" in the early 2000s but has really died out as of late. The Millenium Falcon that's being referred to has very few, if any, unique parts. LEGO has really gone back to its roots in the past 2 or 3 years, especially with the AWESOME creator series.

The creator series _is_ very awesome. it's the only kind we buy for our girl.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#118

Post by tombell » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:51 PM UTC

I feel the need to point out the obvious. It's LEGO not LEGOS or legos.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#119

Post by lemming » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:51 PM UTC

maximusprime wrote: post #81

[deleted] wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I agree, but I really don't understand how or why scientifically minded people could claim that they believe male and female brains to be absolutely biologically identical. We evolved to have specific gender roles. We have obvious physical differences related to those roles. We have obvious psychological differences as well. I can only imagine that to some people, the truth is inconvenient to them in their "everyone…

I'm no proponent of "everyone is absolutely identical", but I would go with "everyone is absolutely much more similar than the cliches pushed by e.g. the toy industry". The role of cultural influence in this is enormous and impossible to separate from intrinsic biological differences. I'm from New Zealand where (at least in my peer group) gender roles are not too clearly defined. However I live in Spain where they absolutely are - are New Zealanders biologically less sexist than Spaniards? Of course not.

There's another interesting discussion to be had around brain plasticity and whether people raised in cultures which promote differences are actually more different, but I'm not aware of research in this area. It would be interesting to see.

Re: I'm starting to think LEGO is evil

#120

Post by wanorris » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

maximusprime wrote: post #70

pbreit wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's much easier for a single company to make some changes than it is for a single or even very large group of consumers to drive a change. It stinks, but every complaint about products asks for an Apple comparison. I would say both Apple and Pixar have demonstrated that sticking to the purity of your craft can be both fulfilling and extremely lucrative.

You assume people want a change. I do not think they do. Do people want an end to gender specific toys? Certainly some do. But the vast majority do not. I firmly believe, through interacting with people in general, and my own children, that female and male brains are completely different. They are hard wired to like different things, and behave differently. I don't see anything wrong with that, and don't see any reas…

And yet there are plenty of kids who are gender atypical, sometimes in a few ways, sometimes in many ways, sometimes such that they identify with the opposite gender.

The reality is not that there are hard categories of things that we can simply say a person's brain is "hard wired" to be either A or B, but that there are clusters and statistical probabilities. Some people are one or more standard deviations removed from what we think of as "gender typical."

There's definitely an element of truth to the "hard wiring" thing -- you can't change a child's personality and enthusiasms simply by wishing it so or trying to "train" them. But the picture is far more complicated than you seem to think.