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The Queen’s Coup

declassifiedaus.org

101–110 of 113 posts

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most European countries - and so in Italy, you don't vote for a person, you vote for a party. This is usually a good idea, but can lead to unintended side-effects (See: United Kingdom). Monti was supported by both democratically-elected Houses of Parliament, otherwise Napolitano would not have given him the task of creating a government.

> This is usually a good idea, but can lead to unintended side-effects (See: United Kingdom). In the UK you very much vote for a person, using the arcane first past the post system. People usually vote based on party allegiance, but at the circonscription level you cast a vote for the one winner, resulting in massive disenfranchisement.

> In the UK you very much vote for a person

We're talking about the PM here. You vote for a person who then votes on the PM, so it's an indirect system.

> using the arcane first past the post system.

FPTP sucks, but I've never heard it called arcane before. It's arguably the default normal way to vote for anything.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#102
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or: both parties constantly view themselves as the minority party even when they have the majority and complain about how the other party always wins and they never get to. It’s more nuanced: as results go in national elections, they have roughly equal success within the parameters of the electoral system that we have. Some localities are effectively single-party, and some are purple. Personally I think the people th…

Yeah, it's unfortunate that this whole abortion thing came up and all the Republicans had to choose between scaring all the women in their lives or flip flopping, but the party leadership have been trying to divide everyone on mortality issues for years. No idea who to vote for anymore :(

The easy answer is if you don’t have anyone you want to vote for: don’t.

I still vote, but much more selectively and I retired the belief I used to have that if you don’t vote you can’t complain. I have priorities, and I know for a fact there isn’t another human being on this planet, let alone one in my general locality that would match my voting preferences perfectly. Nothing wrong with prioritizing because the best you can hope for is good enough for government work.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#103
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this seems weird to outsiders, but as a Canadian I quite like it. Having PMs elected by MPs means that it is harder for a single rabble rousing politician to sweep to power and distort the use of, say, the military. Having Governers General appointed by PMs, and confirmed by the monarch, means that someone outside of politics (usually a well respected figure like a university president or astronaut) holds the…

As a fellow Canadian I f*cking HATE it. Hereditary monarchies are pure unabashed evil. Monarchs only hold their positions because some ancestor of theirs was a better murderer than everyone else. They have massive wealth / land holdings, huge incomes and tremendous influence in politics and other spheres, despite not being elected nor actually earning any of their ill-gotten gains. That being said, I agree with you w…

Agree in principle, but it's not quite as cut and dry as one might hope. The most prominent example of this are the various Indigenous matters the country is still working through. For many of these peoples they did not create agreements with the Canadian government, but rather with the monarch of the day. Over time we will likely disentangle ourselves, but it is definitely a multi-faceted question.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#104
post #70
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am aware of a 51/49 class split between Liberal and Labor over Gough .. This may be a somewhat outdated appraisal of the situation. The number of people voting for neither of those parties (including coalition members) has been steadily growing for years, with the most recent federal election reaching 33%. I recall, more hazily, that the previous federal election (so several prime ministers ago) it was just n…

> I recall, more hazily, that the previous federal election (so several prime ministers ago) The most recent federal election was this year. The previous federal election was 2019. There were no changes of prime minister in that time; Scott Morrison was the prime minister going into the 2019 election, and Scott Morrison was the prime minister going into the 2022 election. I realise this takes a bit of getting used to…

Yes, apologies - my several prime ministers ago aside was very much a tongue in cheek utterance. I'm painfully aware that Scott was the one to reset that record.

As to 'Only the US has two realistic options' - you appear to be switching in 'realistic', and overloading 'options', when comparing other countries.

I'd contend, f.e. that even with 33% of people not voting for the Labor or Lib/Nat coalition in Australia, we're still in the regrettable situation of only have 'two realistic options'.

In the sense of 'who'll be head of state' (or PM in Canada, AU, UK, etc) it's well understood going into an election who the two candidates for that job are, and undeniably that has an influence on voters in electorates where that person isn't running (ie. almost all voters).

I know nothing about Canadian politics, but was living in London in 2010 - pop media were struggling to understand & describe how a coalition could even work. Anyway, that went as well as we expected, and my point is mostly that there was only two potentials before, and zero doubt after the election, about who the prime minister would be.

You observe that other parties present candidates and win seats in the UK and Canada (and presumably everywhere except the USA?) - which is true, but misses my point. Consider, if an independent in the US won a seat, could that conceivably change the selection of president?

Aside - a model I'd love to see employed more widely is a Swiss-style Federal Council.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#105
post #50

In a British style constitutional monarchy, it is the job of the monarch to resolve these sorts of stalemates. The title is absurd.

In a British style constitutional monarchy, the crown is supposed to exercise executive power only on the advice of ministers who command the confidence of the House of Commons or equivalent. Kerr appointed a prime minister who manifestly did not command the confidence of the House of Representatives, then acted on advice from that prime minister. This was a suspension of democracy.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For crying out loud, a long term majority is not One Party Rule. The primary difference being that dissenting parties are not outlawed.

In France the largest political party until 1956 was the communist party. In 1948 the communist/socialist alliance was almost elected to power in Italy, and the communist party was getting over one third of the vote to 1976 (the Italian socialist party with hammer and sickle logo got about 10% of the vote, and Maoist parties got hundreds of thousands of votes). Too much widespread support at the time to ban. Not in W…

Sorry, what? If you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Australia#Prime_mi..., you can see that's not the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party_split_o... was a major cause in federal Labor not winning enough seats, and with the demise of the DLP and the rise of explicit faction control, it was possible for Labor to win majorities in the lower house (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party#Federal... links to all the relevant elections).

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#108
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this seems weird to outsiders, but as a Canadian I quite like it. Having PMs elected by MPs means that it is harder for a single rabble rousing politician to sweep to power and distort the use of, say, the military. Having Governers General appointed by PMs, and confirmed by the monarch, means that someone outside of politics (usually a well respected figure like a university president or astronaut) holds the…

As a fellow Canadian I f*cking HATE it. Hereditary monarchies are pure unabashed evil. Monarchs only hold their positions because some ancestor of theirs was a better murderer than everyone else. They have massive wealth / land holdings, huge incomes and tremendous influence in politics and other spheres, despite not being elected nor actually earning any of their ill-gotten gains. That being said, I agree with you w…

Well, I make no bones about the fact I loved the Queen. So take this with as much salt as you think you need, but I honestly think that there isn't really a better solution than what we have. Queen Elizebeth did not want the role of monarch. She literally prayed to God when she found out that she was in the direct line of succession. She asked for a brother, so she wouldn't have this heavy burden of responsibility.

If we want a single, final, sole, human decision maker I do not see how we can accomplish this without a monarchy that doesn't come with the massive downsides of attracting those that have a lust for power. That the monarchy is essentially toothless in all but the most dire circumstances is a feature not a bug.

It's like the folks in the military that get slated to man the nuclear weapons silos. Very few want the job because they know that they're only need in the very rare circumstance where the whole world is on the line.

It's illiquid power.

As for the rest of it, the holdings, etc. I looked at the Queen as essentially a guardian of nature and an encourager of those in the military, intelligence and of the many charities that exist across The Common Wealth. Yes, she had many fancy dinners, but we got more than what we paid for. Whether encouraging a single little girl to become a doctor when she grows up or slapping a good-hearted wealthy guy on the back when he donates a colossal fortune to helping orphans the return on investment is obvious. Fifteen minutes of her time yielded (and continues to yield) tremendous return.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#109
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's unfortunate that this whole abortion thing came up and all the Republicans had to choose between scaring all the women in their lives or flip flopping, but the party leadership have been trying to divide everyone on mortality issues for years. No idea who to vote for anymore :(

The easy answer is if you don’t have anyone you want to vote for: don’t. I still vote, but much more selectively and I retired the belief I used to have that if you don’t vote you can’t complain. I have priorities, and I know for a fact there isn’t another human being on this planet, let alone one in my general locality that would match my voting preferences perfectly. Nothing wrong with prioritizing because the best…

Choosing not to vote is, in and of itself, a form of voting.

Only in this case, you are actively abdicating the right to make a choice, and therefore by default you are choosing to vote for the worst possible outcome.

I don't care what party you are in, or what person(s) you would vote for. You can violently disagree with me on any of those topics. But you should at least get out there and cast your vote.

Re: The Queen’s Coup

#110
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easy answer is if you don’t have anyone you want to vote for: don’t. I still vote, but much more selectively and I retired the belief I used to have that if you don’t vote you can’t complain. I have priorities, and I know for a fact there isn’t another human being on this planet, let alone one in my general locality that would match my voting preferences perfectly. Nothing wrong with prioritizing because the best…

Choosing not to vote is, in and of itself, a form of voting. Only in this case, you are actively abdicating the right to make a choice, and therefore by default you are choosing to vote for the worst possible outcome. I don't care what party you are in, or what person(s) you would vote for. You can violently disagree with me on any of those topics. But you should at least get out there and cast your vote.

Incorrect. This is a lie we tell other people to guilt them into voting because if we can at least get them to a ballot box we can maybe also get them to at least partially vote for our preferred set of outcomes; it’s not actually true. Not voting is simply not voting: abstaining from making a choice or making the choice to not make a choice if you prefer, and how someone exercises their voting power and how much is a personal choice.

Not voting is at worst, voting for whoever actually won in a given election. In my case I live in a single-party county in a single-party State. So voting one of two ways is either wasted ink on the winner or a protest vote for the loser and I’ll sometimes do it anyway, but when the winner is going to be same officeholder who has held office for 30 years and won with 80% of the vote last time, it’s definitely more of an emotional exercise than a rational one no matter how you voted, and this will only be subject to change once that person retires. There was also one office where the incumbent was running unopposed (and has been for years) so I stopped wasting the ink.

Given how voting differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, everyone has their own calculus for voting so knock off the patronizing propaganda.

If it makes you feel better, I at least partially fill out my 10 page ballots packed with offices across three or more elections with four or five different kinds of voting methods, plus State and local ballot initiatives, but only to the degree that I am satisfied with it or can be satisfied with it, and that’s all that is really necessary.

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