The real reason you can't hire developers.... • Hacker News Board

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#251

Post by kls » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 3:14 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #240

kls wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear that, I once read a quote that said hiring is about getting the best person available in your market at the time you are looking for them. There are two constraints there both of them hinged on time, the first being the developers timing of being on the market and the second being your timing of need for the position. Both of those conspire against you in your ability to find the best person. When I rea…

I like the points you make. Working remotely is how product development and many other tasks that require highly skilled professionals is getting done in 2011. Working out of offices every day of the week is an archaic practice. A bit over ten years ago I worked briefly at a company that didn't have internet access for the employees, so people had to write down things they needed to look up on paper and then look it…

People from more than 3/4 of all the countries in the world took classes at Stanford this quarter and none of them even knew if the professor was wearing pants because everything was remote. Laptops have been around for decades. Video conferencing for several years, IM for decades, collaborative white boards and editing software. Bugtracking and version control are all on the web. What on earth is going on at these companies that they don't know about what is going on? Even hospitals are getting xrays evaluated overseas.

There is a crucial observation in this particular portion of your post. Remote development forces you to streamline processes like "put everything into the bug tracker" and "diagram everything on the whiteboard". Having remote developers can actually force you to become a more streamlined and efficient company. You are right though, with Skype, bug trackers, and SaaS there is no valid reason why someone can not consider a remote candidate, save for some serious security concerns, like top secret classified information and systems.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#252

Post by sabat » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 3:57 PM UTC

goodweeds wrote: post #77

sabat wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a normal job market that's good common sense, but in the current tech job market, where unemployment is somewhere around 3%, resume blasting ought to be more than enough. The problem is that companies -- particularly larger companies -- are still in Arrogance Mode and think that the job-seekers need them. They don't.

The problem is that companies -- particularly larger companies -- are still in Arrogance Mode and think that the job-seekers need them. They don't That's a big dish of good old american entitlement. If you were on the market during the last boom, the demand for engineers was far greater than it was today. Because of that, for every 1 good resume that landed in my inbox I had to wade through about 300 bullshit resumes…

That's a big dish of good old american entitlement.

Not at all. It's a reflection on the current technology job market in the Bay Area. It doesn't last.

f you were on the market during the last boom, the demand for engineers was far greater than it was today.

I was, and my recruiter friends tell me that demand (again, mainly in the Bay Area) is about the same as it was then (late '90s). We're sitting on 3% unemployment, so finding good people is difficult.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#253

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 4:44 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #240

kls wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear that, I once read a quote that said hiring is about getting the best person available in your market at the time you are looking for them. There are two constraints there both of them hinged on time, the first being the developers timing of being on the market and the second being your timing of need for the position. Both of those conspire against you in your ability to find the best person. When I rea…

I like the points you make. Working remotely is how product development and many other tasks that require highly skilled professionals is getting done in 2011. Working out of offices every day of the week is an archaic practice. A bit over ten years ago I worked briefly at a company that didn't have internet access for the employees, so people had to write down things they needed to look up on paper and then look it…

Can you name any drawbacks to working remotely?

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#254

Post by Terretta » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 5:27 PM UTC

mjwalshe wrote: post #210

Terretta wrote: post #67

The plural of API is APIs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interfa... When hiring devs, I definitely look for language skill and attention to detail in syntax. A buggy cover letter or resume suggests buggy code.

mm so the Google developers who put their names to the published APIS are out of luck then :-0

No idea what you're talking about. The OP's description continually refers to "API's". The apostrophe indicates singular possessive, but the OP intended it as a plural.

    - This is one API.
    - Those are several APIs.
    - This API's REST architecture is easy to use.
    - Those APIs' REST architectures are hard to use.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#255

Post by chrisbennet » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 5:50 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #186

The reason companies can't hire good people is because good people already have good jobs, and many of these companies suffer from "sticker shock" when they see how much money good developers are already making. I recently interviewed at a major online retailer and cloud computing provider (heh). The person interviewing me said, "wow, you're the best person of the last 50 we've interviewed". They followed up by makin…

"Their justification was "it wouldn't be fair if you negotiated a better offer than other people on your team".

Translation: "We hire for mediocrity and you would skew the curve."

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#256

Post by goodweeds » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 6:35 PM UTC

sabat wrote: post #252

goodweeds wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that companies -- particularly larger companies -- are still in Arrogance Mode and think that the job-seekers need them. They don't That's a big dish of good old american entitlement. If you were on the market during the last boom, the demand for engineers was far greater than it was today. Because of that, for every 1 good resume that landed in my inbox I had to wade through about 300 bullshit resumes…

That's a big dish of good old american entitlement. Not at all. It's a reflection on the current technology job market in the Bay Area. It doesn't last. f you were on the market during the last boom, the demand for engineers was far greater than it was today. I was, and my recruiter friends tell me that demand (again, mainly in the Bay Area) is about the same as it was then (late '90s). We're sitting on 3% unemployme…

Huh? Can you cite your 3% unemployment source? Outside of the tech industry it's pretty difficult to find temporary work, let alone full-time work. I've heard closer to 15% for the greater bay area.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#257

Post by kls » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 6:36 PM UTC

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #253

droithomme wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the points you make. Working remotely is how product development and many other tasks that require highly skilled professionals is getting done in 2011. Working out of offices every day of the week is an archaic practice. A bit over ten years ago I worked briefly at a company that didn't have internet access for the employees, so people had to write down things they needed to look up on paper and then look it…

Can you name any drawbacks to working remotely?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say no, other may disagree and may have valid concerns but the benefits on both sides far outweigh the drawbacks. Especially for a start-up, while in product development, a start-up can significantly reduce capital expenditures by not having payable for facilities. This is a huge burden on a new company and the elimination of it, is by far one of the greatest advantages. Even in established companies it can help them to significantly reduce their footprint. The developer does not incur anymore expenses because they are already paying, housing, electricity, internet, phone, etc.

As well one of the other great benefits of having a distributed team is that you already have the process in place to on-board anyone in the world into your company with little expense. No relocation, no facilities set up, no cube build out.

The biggest concern with remote developer that managers have is "how do I know their working"? That's a red flag from micromanagement, but that is besides the point. The answer to that question should already exist in their in-house solution, all work should be done through a ticket system, and source control, if it is not then they have a lax process already and they probably have people who are not working right under their nose. The fact that a manager of development would not know how to answer the question of how to know if people are working, should be concerning to a subordinate of that manager, it may reflect that they are incompetent at their job.

To me their are no draw backs, I was actually opposed to distributed development a few years ago, I though it would isolate developers and not allow them to form a cohesive bond. It was ignorance on my part because Open Source projects have been proving the opposite for a long time now. I just finished a contract with IBM that was over 20 individuals on the team, all of which where remote. With Skype and other tools it was no different than all of us being in the same office. Those kind of successes changed my mind on the subject.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#258

Post by droithomme » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #253

droithomme wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the points you make. Working remotely is how product development and many other tasks that require highly skilled professionals is getting done in 2011. Working out of offices every day of the week is an archaic practice. A bit over ten years ago I worked briefly at a company that didn't have internet access for the employees, so people had to write down things they needed to look up on paper and then look it…

Can you name any drawbacks to working remotely?

Yes, there are many disadvantages to remote work.

* Can't have lunch with coworkers. Lunch has always been a good time for socializing about non-work events and developing camaraderie.

* Can't go out drinking after work with coworkers, same benefits.

* It takes much more time to personally prepare one's own lunch than taking advantage of free healthy food now offered as standard benefit at campus by most reputable tech companies like Google.

* No employer provided on-campus child care.

* No employer provided Friday massages.

* When you don't feel like working, can't chit chat discretely about TV and sports with workers for several hours.

* Less mentorship capabilities for senior experienced engineers to be paired to train and guide freshmen. However, I haven't seen this in many companies so it's not going to be missed most places.

It's always been an advantage to work remotely if you are doing stuff where you are a sole worker who is able to work on black box projects where you get a spec or desire in and return a finished product. This works best for people that are recognized experts and is a subset of work possibilities.

The real sticking issue has always been retaining the advantages of highly collaborative group and team work. Being able to talk face to face, have all hands meetings, have access to the company source control server, be able to work on something in the same room with someone working collaboratively at the whiteboard and in a text editor. Ten years ago this was completely impractical as the infrastructure was just not in place.

All of that has changed rapidly in the last decade as tech and services have ramped up and delivered in spades. Not only is work able to be done electronically, but it is regularly being done electronically, and it works every bit as well as face to face, often even better since you have more control over distractions.

It's not only super advanced high tech companies taking advantage of technologies like video conferencing either. It's not leading edge at all anymore. Video conferencing comes built in to the ordinary inexpensive cell phones regular people have, and people with absolutely no technical ability are using it every day. It's an ordinary part of contemporary life. It is so common to do now, the idea that companies aren't doing it already or are fearful of it is quixotic and surprising that there are hold outs who are so backwards. It's like hearing about someone from the 1950s who came out of a stasis pod or emerged from a bomb shelter who isn't aware that cell phones and laptops exist. The suggestion that some of these companies are claiming to be startup high tech companies is almost completely absurd and unbelievable. You have to wonder what sort of investors are so clueless they would invest in management of a tech company of all things that simply doesn't know what it is doing and seems oblivious or hostile to the realities of the modern world.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#259

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 8:44 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #258

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name any drawbacks to working remotely?

Yes, there are many disadvantages to remote work. * Can't have lunch with coworkers. Lunch has always been a good time for socializing about non-work events and developing camaraderie. * Can't go out drinking after work with coworkers, same benefits. * It takes much more time to personally prepare one's own lunch than taking advantage of free healthy food now offered as standard benefit at campus by most reputable te…

I think you're both right. I couldn't come up with any real deal-breakers, either. I've been thinking of working from home a couple of days a week, but I thought maybe I wasn't thinking it through. I'm going to raise you 2020 though.

Re: The real reason you can't hire developers....

#260

Post by jrockway » Thu, Dec 15, 2011, 8:56 PM UTC

chrisbennet wrote: post #255

jrockway wrote: post #186

The reason companies can't hire good people is because good people already have good jobs, and many of these companies suffer from "sticker shock" when they see how much money good developers are already making. I recently interviewed at a major online retailer and cloud computing provider (heh). The person interviewing me said, "wow, you're the best person of the last 50 we've interviewed". They followed up by makin…

"Their justification was "it wouldn't be fair if you negotiated a better offer than other people on your team". Translation: "We hire for mediocrity and you would skew the curve."

They also claim they have a "startup-like culture" which means that instead of getting a real desk, you get a door with some dowels holding it up. Not making this up. WTF?