How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier • Hacker News Board

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#41

Post by olivermarks » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #33

olivermarks wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversi…

But it isn't lost or scattered into the atmosphere. It's kept well contained in a nice container which can be moved around easily with a forklift. The metals can be reprocessed and turned back into more batteries. Even first generation Leaf batteries are still being sold for reasonable sums of money so we haven't even reached the stage were we are recycling them in ernest yet.

The recycling processes and costs are astronomical and environmentally damaging. https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-lithium-ion-batteries-...

As lithium batteries degrade they become more unstable and fire prone. I'm sure you're familiar with what happens to your laptop battery as it ages - shorter and shorter life, swelling etc.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#42

Post by dalyons » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #34

Why lithium is not considered in the same category as fossil fuels? I mean, it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" and it becomes "spent" after nth "energising'. Whereas e.g. diesel comes "pre-charged" and is "spent" after first use? I read conflicting articles which one is more environment friendly.

Because it doesn’t become “spent”, you can just recycle it back into new batteries at nearly 100% recovery.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#43

Post by olivermarks » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #39

olivermarks wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversi…

Lithium is non-renewable (we have a finite supply of it), but it's also not a consumable so this is rather less of an issue. Lithium in batteries is more comparable to steel in car bodies than fossil fuels.

Cars used to be made of steel and were very recyclable. More recently they are mostly made of plastics and alloys that are not easily recyclable.

Lithium is extremely hard to recycle.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#44

Post by doorman2 » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

hyperionplays wrote: post #20

Shame Australian's see little to no benefit, all of the profits are off shored and there are little royalties paid back to the Australian people.

It's not like they're giving the lithium away for free?

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#45

Post by it_citizen » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #2

The flipside of electrification of vehicles is all the extra metal they need to mine, which is highly environmentally destructive. We don't even have the metal supplies to fully electrify car production, not even close, although I see South America is going to ramp up production substantially soon.

Do you have a reliable source for the lack of supply?

Ideally with a detailed breakdown for each potentially problematic material.

I keep seeing claims that go both way on that matter. But none were backed by serious research.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#46

Post by advisedwang » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #34

Why lithium is not considered in the same category as fossil fuels? I mean, it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" and it becomes "spent" after nth "energising'. Whereas e.g. diesel comes "pre-charged" and is "spent" after first use? I read conflicting articles which one is more environment friendly.

Lithium car batteries can be cycled 1500-2000 times. Fossil fuels get 1 cycle. 3 orders of magnitude is a categorical difference.

[1] https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev-batteries...

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#47

Post by kortilla » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #32

lob_it wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abandonded mines (with the environmental carelessness) and the coming revelation of abandoned oil/gas operations leaking greenhouse gases is just a slice of history on repeat. https://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/aba... It looks like insufficient bonds and bankruptcy just shifted cost burdens for cleanup to government. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/cleaning-abandoned-coal-mi... https://apnews.…

> It looks like insufficient bonds and bankruptcy just shifted cost burdens for cleanup to government. That's the goal of capitalism, privitise the profits, socialise the losses.

No it isn’t. Where does such a statement even come from?

That’s like saying the goal of socialism is to starve everyone.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#48

Post by Manuel_D » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

it_citizen wrote: post #45

Synaesthesia wrote: post #2

The flipside of electrification of vehicles is all the extra metal they need to mine, which is highly environmentally destructive. We don't even have the metal supplies to fully electrify car production, not even close, although I see South America is going to ramp up production substantially soon.

Do you have a reliable source for the lack of supply? Ideally with a detailed breakdown for each potentially problematic material. I keep seeing claims that go both way on that matter. But none were backed by serious research.

Ultimately, scarcity is determined by cost. Here's the cost history: https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

The cathode accounts for just over half a battery's cost: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/breaking-down-the-cost-of-a...

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#49

Post by Manuel_D » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 6:00 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #29

Synaesthesia wrote: post #2

The flipside of electrification of vehicles is all the extra metal they need to mine, which is highly environmentally destructive. We don't even have the metal supplies to fully electrify car production, not even close, although I see South America is going to ramp up production substantially soon.

If you think 10kg of lithium in a Tesla is a lot of extraction, you're never going to believe how much steel and aluminum is in a car.

Steel and aluminum prices didn't rise 12x in the last 2 years [1]. It doesn't matter how much that lithium weighs on a scale. It matters how much it weighs against your wallet.

1. https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#50

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #49

jeffbee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think 10kg of lithium in a Tesla is a lot of extraction, you're never going to believe how much steel and aluminum is in a car.

Steel and aluminum prices didn't rise 12x in the last 2 years [1]. It doesn't matter how much that lithium weighs on a scale. It matters how much it weighs against your wallet. 1. https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

I thought we are talking about the sizes of holes in the ground, not the cost.