How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier • Hacker News Board

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#31

Post by Synaesthesia » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #29

Synaesthesia wrote: post #2

The flipside of electrification of vehicles is all the extra metal they need to mine, which is highly environmentally destructive. We don't even have the metal supplies to fully electrify car production, not even close, although I see South America is going to ramp up production substantially soon.

If you think 10kg of lithium in a Tesla is a lot of extraction, you're never going to believe how much steel and aluminum is in a car.

Yes that's why we need to move to small, efficient, reliable cars and public transport.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#32

Post by iso1631 » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

lob_it wrote: post #26

Workaccount2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Localised environmental destruction is such a pittance compared to global environmental catastrophe that its comical people even bring it up.

Abandonded mines (with the environmental carelessness) and the coming revelation of abandoned oil/gas operations leaking greenhouse gases is just a slice of history on repeat. https://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/aba... It looks like insufficient bonds and bankruptcy just shifted cost burdens for cleanup to government. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/cleaning-abandoned-coal-mi... https://apnews.…

> It looks like insufficient bonds and bankruptcy just shifted cost burdens for cleanup to government.

That's the goal of capitalism, privitise the profits, socialise the losses.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#33

Post by VBprogrammer » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

olivermarks wrote: post #23

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is gas. 100x more energy dense than lithium and it hasn't been great for the environment to say the least.

Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversi…

But it isn't lost or scattered into the atmosphere. It's kept well contained in a nice container which can be moved around easily with a forklift. The metals can be reprocessed and turned back into more batteries.

Even first generation Leaf batteries are still being sold for reasonable sums of money so we haven't even reached the stage were we are recycling them in ernest yet.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#34

Post by varispeed » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:30 PM UTC

Why lithium is not considered in the same category as fossil fuels? I mean, it is technically used as a fuel that you need to keep "energising" and it becomes "spent" after nth "energising'. Whereas e.g. diesel comes "pre-charged" and is "spent" after first use? I read conflicting articles which one is more environment friendly.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#35

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #6

Synaesthesia wrote: post #2

The flipside of electrification of vehicles is all the extra metal they need to mine, which is highly environmentally destructive. We don't even have the metal supplies to fully electrify car production, not even close, although I see South America is going to ramp up production substantially soon.

Localised environmental destruction is such a pittance compared to global environmental catastrophe that its comical people even bring it up.

>Localised environmental destruction is such a pittance compared to global environmental catastrophe that its comical people even bring it up.

While every environmentalist ever talks about "the greater good" they pouted and whined and tossed the plate on the floor when there was nuclear energy on it. You'll have to forgive the general public for not taking you (as a group) at your word.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#36

Post by _jvqe » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #32

lob_it wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abandonded mines (with the environmental carelessness) and the coming revelation of abandoned oil/gas operations leaking greenhouse gases is just a slice of history on repeat. https://science.howstuffworks.com/engineering/structural/aba... It looks like insufficient bonds and bankruptcy just shifted cost burdens for cleanup to government. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/cleaning-abandoned-coal-mi... https://apnews.…

> It looks like insufficient bonds and bankruptcy just shifted cost burdens for cleanup to government. That's the goal of capitalism, privitise the profits, socialise the losses.

I actually only looked at north america, knowing that it happens in every country that mines. Capitalism is not the scapegoat.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-wrestles-with-the-toxic...

The psuedo-environmentalists getting played like a 2-bit....crypto investor (not my 1st word choice, but still relevant) is funny though :p

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#37

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #31

jeffbee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think 10kg of lithium in a Tesla is a lot of extraction, you're never going to believe how much steel and aluminum is in a car.

Yes that's why we need to move to small, efficient, reliable cars and public transport.

100% true. But objections to resource extraction for lithium should just be ignored. There are literally 1000x larger extraction sites for other purposes, especially iron and aluminum, but also table salt, laundry soap, etc. There are nation-sized areas of America that have been scraped flat for oil and gas production. The land sacrificed for lithium extraction is so far down the list of important environmental issues that it can't even be ranked more precisely than "tied for last place".

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#38

Post by gadflyinyoureye » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #31

jeffbee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think 10kg of lithium in a Tesla is a lot of extraction, you're never going to believe how much steel and aluminum is in a car.

Yes that's why we need to move to small, efficient, reliable cars and public transport.

Keep in mind that you have to move your population to higher density housing. Essentially to really prompt public transit in the US you will have to introduce draconian laws that prevent the creation of single family houses and their future sales. This is if you work from the idea that we only have 9 years left until we can’t prevent the climate damage.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#39

Post by nicoburns » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

olivermarks wrote: post #23

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative is gas. 100x more energy dense than lithium and it hasn't been great for the environment to say the least.

Chile is already being ruined. Pay close attention to the lithium triangle as it expands and the state the planet is left in after being mined https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/02/01/south-america-s-li... Why is lithium extraction bad for the environment? Any type of resource extraction is harmful to the planet. This is because removing these raw materials can result in soil degradation, water shortages, biodiversi…

Lithium is non-renewable (we have a finite supply of it), but it's also not a consumable so this is rather less of an issue. Lithium in batteries is more comparable to steel in car bodies than fossil fuels.

Re: How Australia became the world’s greatest lithium supplier

#40

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #9

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan has something like $1T worth of lithium reserves. Who gets access and how it ends up being exploited remains to be seen but that country is not going to become some forgotten backwater anytime soon.

Afghanistan is landlocked. To its north is Russia. To its east is China. To its south are Pakistan and India. And to its west is Iran. Fun neighborhood. Nothing could go wrong with the above countries fighting for their share of Afghanistan's mineral resources.

>Afghanistan is landlocked

Which is not that great if you intend to export raw bulk goods (e.g. ore). You really want to have ports for that. The extra few percent efficiency of ship vs rail makes a huge difference because margin is so thin.