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Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

economist.com

31–40 of 271 posts

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#31

Unfortunately, a lot of climate activists’ primary goal is not stopping climate change but rather advocating for degrowth. They are thus vehemently opposed to any solutions that don’t involve massive reductions in consumption. This is not only politically untenable (it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) but also alienates the majority of people from the cause, who might ot…

> degrowth

> it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions

What about sustainable growth focused on actual quality of life and not on perpetuating a system that produce/consume useless cheap low quality gadgets and services for the sole purpose of keeping the population at work 8 hours a day until they hit 65/67 years old (age by the time 25% of the poorest are already dead)

The fact that we (may have) decoupled growth and co2 doesn't mean all growth is progress or that all growth is desirable.

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve got a horrid feeling you’re waiting for this precise question, but any source on degrowth being the aim of a “lot” of climate activists to the extent that it’s vaguely mainstream (as opposed to just being a minor current, which I’m aware exists)

It doesn’t help that most visible activists don’t have clear and measurable goals

I don’t know about that: the major activist groups in the uk which get news attention are just stop oil, who want the government to stop issuing new oil and gas licenses, and insulate Britain, who want the government to install insulation in all state-owned housing.

Those are both concrete, measurable goals

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#33
post #5

Rather late for the Economist to discover that the west imports its manufactured goods.

From TFA: "Strikingly, consumption emissions, which include a measure of the carbon embedded in imports, have fallen by 15% over the same period."

Unless there's a global GDP graph showing the same, we're not decoupled.

Or, you could say, we're in an era of weak decoupling where high-tail QoL can be marginally improved without negative env. externalities. That isnt "strong decoupling" where the bulk of QoL improvements around the world lie.

We're interested in GDP growth because it's highly correlated with QoL. Rich-world marginal QoL improvements aren't interesting, nor is their alleged decoupling.

The economist here says the world can get rich from services... er, No. For 80% of the population they dont need more services to improve QoL.

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#34

Unfortunately, a lot of climate activists’ primary goal is not stopping climate change but rather advocating for degrowth. They are thus vehemently opposed to any solutions that don’t involve massive reductions in consumption. This is not only politically untenable (it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) but also alienates the majority of people from the cause, who might ot…

Reading the article leaves me with a taste of self-delusion as a society.

I mean, we take 3 pollution parameters very limited in time and space, we see how they decrease, and we open the bottle of champagne to celebrate...

If we don't look at the big picture, we are fooling ourselves, and in my opinion only degrowth will save us, just keep in mind that previous societies that consumed fewer resources collapsed for exhaustion of resources in relatively short periods of time (but long in human terms).

Is it difficult to convince people of degrowth? Absolutely. But we either degrow or we will be degrowth.

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#35
I'll be casting my vote with the skeptics for this one.

That said, even if economic activity was fully decoupled from emissions, Earth's environmental problems would remain overwhelming. Biodiversity loss, deforestation, aquifer depletion, desertification, etc. are just as concerning for most people here as rising global temperatures.

My inner cynic sees headlines like the above and assumes that A) the writer/publisher wants people to think everything is OK, and B) the writer/publisher wants people to narrowly focus on global warming as opposed to the greater health of the natural environment.

While obviously not easy, transitioning to lower-emissions energy sources is far,far easier than fully acknowledging the material basis of our economy and factoring in actually sufficient environmental protections to our systems of production and distribution. If we suddenly weren't allowed to replace old-growth forests with mono-culture, pollute our groundwater, fill the earth with plastic, kill off a majority of animal species, and so forth, how much would the economy shrink? More than anyone published in The Economist would ever admit, I suspect.

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#36
post #21

Unfortunately, a lot of climate activists’ primary goal is not stopping climate change but rather advocating for degrowth. They are thus vehemently opposed to any solutions that don’t involve massive reductions in consumption. This is not only politically untenable (it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) but also alienates the majority of people from the cause, who might ot…

I’ve got a horrid feeling you’re waiting for this precise question, but any source on degrowth being the aim of a “lot” of climate activists to the extent that it’s vaguely mainstream (as opposed to just being a minor current, which I’m aware exists)

Environmentalist groups often oppose construction of solar and wind farms [0]. The Sunrise Movement has explicitly advocated for degrowth policies (e.g. [1], with some in the movement claiming it does not go far enough [2]).

[0] https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/americas-top-environmental...

[1] https://twitter.com/sunrisemvmt/status/1328770319843287041?l...

[2] https://medium.com/@xxcapsxx1964/to-the-sunrise-movement-fc6...

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#37
post #4

> A large and growing group of mostly rich countries has severed the link between economic growth and rising emissions of greenhouse gases so they outsourced production to the poor countries.

From TFA: "Strikingly, consumption emissions, which include a measure of the carbon embedded in imports, have fallen by 15% over the same period."

The USA still has 45x the emissions per capita of Nigeria, to give a sense of scale.

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#38

> A large and growing group of mostly rich countries has severed the link between economic growth and rising emissions of greenhouse gases so they outsourced production to the poor countries.

It seems like you didn't read the article thoroughly. Why the cheapshot remark?

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#39

Unfortunately, a lot of climate activists’ primary goal is not stopping climate change but rather advocating for degrowth. They are thus vehemently opposed to any solutions that don’t involve massive reductions in consumption. This is not only politically untenable (it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) but also alienates the majority of people from the cause, who might ot…

>(it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions)

Why do you say degrowth = lower quality of life?

Let me give you a simple and practical example: an American living in a suburb takes her gas-guzzler 3-ton SUV to go shopping or to the park, stands in traffic in a 4-lane freeway for one hour. A Dutch living in a suburb takes her bike to go shopping or to the park, rides it through a nice street for 10 minutes. The former consumed much more resources than the latter. Who has the better quality of life?

Re: Economic growth no longer requires rising emissions

#40

Unfortunately, a lot of climate activists’ primary goal is not stopping climate change but rather advocating for degrowth. They are thus vehemently opposed to any solutions that don’t involve massive reductions in consumption. This is not only politically untenable (it is impossible to convince societies to take massive quality-of-life reductions) but also alienates the majority of people from the cause, who might ot…

Why is a reduction in consumption a "massive quality of life reduction"? For example reducing your working hours / increasing vacation time is a quality of life improvement, and a reduction in economic activity.
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