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Trolls (2008)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Trolls (2008)

#271

Post by pg »

jcr wrote: post #260
pg wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example: I know for a fact that the various people who run HN use it to selectively market what they want While you are vague here about what you mean by this, you are more precise later in this thread, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354698 and what you say there is false. Stories about YC companies don't get any extra points or have a different ranking algorithm. They are also treated the same by anti-abus…

Paul, please don't get me wrong, but I would like to politely point out the exception; job posts from YC companies do get preferential treatment in rankings on the front page. It's a known fact, and since absolutely everything here is paid for by you and/or YC, no one has any right or room to complain about YC funded companies getting some additional exposure on their jobs posting. It's fair to consider the YC compan…

Yes, job posts are ads. I talk about that here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354832

(By "stories" I don't mean to include job posts. They are a different type of object, though they get displayed similarly.)

Moderators' votes are not weighted differently than anyone else's. I don't weight votes at all. I've occasionally considered it, and I might try it in the future, but if I did I wouldn't do it based on whether someone was a moderator.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#272

Post by Confusion »

zedshaw wrote: post #179

I normally find that, unless an essay is about mathematics, if it is based on a binary argument then it's just false because it's too simplistic to be based in reality. In this case saying there's only "trolls" and "super awesome people!" is childish. There's a much more interesting spectrum of human behavior online that doesn't fit into these convenient categories. To then say there's only two types of "trolls" is a…

  They'll yell about ad hominem attacks and then do them two 
  comments down.
If that's an example of 'doing whatever they want', then we can all do whatever we want. Nobody gets punished for the behavior you describe here, except by downvotes on the second comment. It's not about a double standard: it's a lack of judgement that many people suffer from. Being able to tell ad hominems in comments by others does not imply being able to tell ad hominems in your own comments.

  and nobody bats a wee little eyelash at it.
You're kindly forgetting the many people that disagree with such namecalling and vilification and are calling others out for that. You can't find a thread where there weren't also people that agreed with you.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#273

Post by m_for_monkey »

vault_ wrote: post #268
zedshaw wrote: post #179

I normally find that, unless an essay is about mathematics, if it is based on a binary argument then it's just false because it's too simplistic to be based in reality. In this case saying there's only "trolls" and "super awesome people!" is childish. There's a much more interesting spectrum of human behavior online that doesn't fit into these convenient categories. To then say there's only two types of "trolls" is a…

This comment is a fantastic example of what is probably the most insidious form of trolling.

In fact, that comment highlights a point missing from pg's essay - that a forum can easily become too closed, and if someone is on an even slightly different opinion than the residents then he is called a troll immediately. Just try to say that "Lisp is not perfect" on this forum! :)

Re: Trolls (2008)

#274

Post by DiabloD3 »

billpatrianakos wrote: post #264
DiabloD3 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short, you can't stop the group think. Continuing from this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354448 I'm not even sure if I get the point of trying either. I mean, I believe I have provided at least some value to HN, but every time I've "been unafraid to call people out", all I got was a bunch of crap for it. Although you say we shouldn't lose hope, I think I already have. Its frustrating to have to deal with…

Can you be more explicit about who or what type of people those are that'd be more at home on 4chan? I'm just curious. I often times feel like maybe I shouldn't be here either. It took me a while before I quit being a lurker and sometimes I wonder "am I HN material or do I belong with the rest of the riff raff?"

I don't think its possible to differentiate the two. Some people intentionally cause trouble, some constantly but unintentionally drag threads off topic, some think "math is hard, hey lets go shopping".

There is no clear cut definition. Although, if you're asking the question if you should be here the answer is implied to be yes since you bothered to ask the question in the first place.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#277

Post by pvillega »

Someone should send the first part to stephen colebourne, as an explanation on why spreading Scala FUD and acting like a victim will only spread hate about his behaviour.

Yes, I should write this, but I'm not smart enought to stop myself to type it. After reading the definition my mind instantly draw his face...

Re: Trolls (2008)

#278

Post by Jugglernaut »

jshen wrote: post #159
edw519 wrote: post #147

Discussions like this remind me of my favorite scene from "Roadhouse", the best bad movie ever. Discussion forums are kinda like bars and hackers are kinda like coolers... All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One: never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two: take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three: be nice. Come on. If somebody get…

"Sometimes we hackers work too hard to make things more complicated than they need to be." tl;dr: maintaining an online community is anything but simple. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. One possibility is that you're referring to the hackers that build communities online who try to establish some sort of guidelines for behavior. If this is what you meant then I think I disagree. I've tried a very similar experime…

Ban the line pushers or at least probate them for a fortnight. There is no reason to allow someone to take up your time by making you wonder if you should ban or not ban.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#279

Post by einhverfr »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #195
lmbe wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Hackernews is the new slash-dot yawn. I'm all about lamernews. You can't change a community you can only leave it.

Although I'm pretty sure you made this comment to be troll bait, I'm upvoting it. >You can't change a community you can only leave it. This is very very true. I've quit many communities because they devolved into noise and spam. I've publicly said that I came to HN merely because I wanted a good list of links worth reading, and somehow I ended up with an account and almost 1000 karma. I suspect in the next 2-3 years…

If there is a discussion where troll bait might be appropriate it is this one. I actually read it as a sort of half-troll, half-satire on the original post, and thought it was actually pretty good. Though if I had written it I would have added stuff to obviously mark ti as satire like:

Because Linux is dying, BSD is set for world domination, and Microsoft writes the world's most robust software in the world. After all they write database servers which are used to run nuclear reactors!

(How many classic trolls can I satirize in one post? I don't know.)

Re: Trolls (2008)

#280

Post by jcr »

pg wrote: post #271
jcr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul, please don't get me wrong, but I would like to politely point out the exception; job posts from YC companies do get preferential treatment in rankings on the front page. It's a known fact, and since absolutely everything here is paid for by you and/or YC, no one has any right or room to complain about YC funded companies getting some additional exposure on their jobs posting. It's fair to consider the YC compan…

Yes, job posts are ads. I talk about that here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3354832 (By "stories" I don't mean to include job posts. They are a different type of object, though they get displayed similarly.) Moderators' votes are not weighted differently than anyone else's. I don't weight votes at all. I've occasionally considered it, and I might try it in the future, but if I did I wouldn't do it based on wh…

Why not? The people you trust to moderate on HN are really the some of very best candidates for being trusted with a greater weighting on their votes/flags. Some might claim it's elitist or unfair, but it is entirely practical and pragmatic.

Additionally, just about any algorithmic way to assign greater trust, and hence, additional weight in voting/flagging, will most likely result in a higher percentage of moderators being trusted than the normal populace. If your algorithm did not result in a higher percentage of moderators being given greater trust/weight, then I'd be worried. ;)

The tough thing about an algorithmic approach is whether or not a person with highly up-voted comments and submissions has good habits, intentions, and judgement when it comes to their voting and flagging? Pure "common sense" (cognitive bias) speculation suggests the two "should" be correlated, but you're the only one with the data needed to prove it.

If there is a way to algorithmically define your standby phrase, "He means well," then I don't know how to do it. If you do figure it out, please write about it. It would make the world a better place.

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