Live data from Hacker News

FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

wsj.com

171–180 of 746 posts

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#171

Remarkable that a venture-backed company can loan $10B to the founder's hedge fund without running into some sort of board/corporate sign-off that's required to literally execute the agreement/fund transfer.

The people who invest in venture funds need to demand better governance for portfolio companies, otherwise this will continue to happen.

I generally agree, but it's not "people," it's institutional funds (endowments, pension funds, etc). The way venture returns are distributed is that a small number of funds (of which Sequioia has historically been one) stand out from the rest in terms of returns. With the lengthy bull market that we have had until this year, VC was a high-performing asset class. Pension fund and endowment managers felt they needed to be in the asset class, which really meant being in those top 10 or so funds that were generating outsized returns. When LPs are competing to get into a few top funds, the funds have all the leverage. My sense is that LPs don't feel like they can make any kind of demands on the VC funds, for fear of being blocked out of investing.

Now we have a market turn and VC is unlikely to sustain the returns of the past decade. That may shift the leverage, but history suggests that LPs will still not put any kind of meaningful pressure on the top funds to do anything different.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#172
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But not once - not from word of mouth, or directly from them, or someone, ever, anywhere - have I heard a common sense way these guys make money due to intelligence, instead of due to a scam or due to luck. Financial markets have a fascinating property: any well-known strategy that can be implemented at reasonable cost [0] stops working. This is because people implement it and the profit goes away. If Jane Street h…

The original comment addresses that concern: >Why in the absence of any positive evidence, like "oh here is our genius but nonetheless expired" trading strategy, which anyone could have furnished in the last two decades, they agree, oh it must be real? I agree that there should be some obviously awesome things these funds did that they can share now given they are no longer able to exploit them. I have no idea if the…

And at least in SBF/Alameda's case, they did, and you can google it. IIUC it was basic arbitrage, the hard part was figuring out how to interface with Japan's banks.

Maybe the guy is a bad dude, I don't have a horse in that race. But lots of trading strategies that have worked in the past are well known.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#173

From the article: "FTX Chief Executive Sam Bankman-Fried said in investor meetings this week that Alameda owes FTX about $10 billion, people familiar with the matter said. FTX extended loans to Alameda using money that customers had deposited on the exchange for trading purposes, a decision that Mr. Bankman-Fried described as a poor judgment call, one of the people said." In the FTX International terms of service ( h…

I put $100 in my Chase account. Chase goes horse betting with my money and loses it all. My account shows $0. That's basically what happened here.

Why is this getting downvoted? its a plain speech description of what they did

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#174

> Alameda’s CEO is Caroline Ellison, a Stanford University graduate who like Mr. Bankman-Fried previously worked for quantitative trading firm Jane Street Capital. Alameda is based in Hong Kong, where FTX was headquartered before relocating to the Bahamas last year. Are the folks at Jane Street making money because they are smart, or because they use that perception to perpetuate some scam? I interact with a lot of H…

This is a very well articulated comment. Thank you for laying this out so clearly. I don't know any hedge fund types so it is helpful to hear from somebody who does.

Everything in their comment points to them not having a clue about the financial industry in general or about how hedge funds / trading firms generate revenue or even try to.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#175
post #13

The Twitter thread from SBF is even better where he admits he messed up. And still trying to throw jabs at Binance here and there like it’s their fault they’re here. Unbelievable.

I think he's in the anger and bargaining phases of it all. I expect he will either kill himself or go to prison when his fraud laid out. "I messed up" isn't going to get him out of this. This story has just begun.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put $100 in my Chase account. Chase goes horse betting with my money and loses it all. My account shows $0. That's basically what happened here.

Why is this getting downvoted? its a plain speech description of what they did

Because Chase actually does something sort of similar (primarily mortgage lending), but they employ a ton of people to think all day about managing risk.

So I think people don't like the comparison, since the true difference is FTX did horse betting, while Chase does something much more rational.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#178
post #128
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, no. If I can’t protest here, where can I protest? Is this supposed to be a safe space for billionaires? It’s my community, too. Don’t censor me in the name of curiosities. This isn’t Iran.

This is one of those times when it's helpful to know what you're optimizing for. On HN we have the luxury of a single principle that we're optimizing for: intellectual curiosity. (See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html plus lots of past explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... ) This makes it easier to answer questions that would otherwise feel like hard tradeoffs. I…

No post body was provided.

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#179
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating FTX.us (which is regulated) and operates in the USA, and FTX global (where all this chicanery happened) and is located in the Bahamas. With that said, the SEC is already also investigating any potential links between the two entities. I don't think they'd be stupid enough to cross those wires, but you never know.

No, see Molly White's blog and the WSJ parent article. What seems to have happened is that 1) FTX.intl loaned money to Alameda Research in the US in exchange for some token, 2) Alameda Research, which is a crypto trading firm, speculated with that money and lost, 3) the collateral from Alameda to FTX turned out to have little value, and so 4) FTX.intl goes down. Bear in mind that Mr. Bankman-Fried heads all three org…

Thanks - this is the most succinct summary of the financial nexus leading to FTX's spiral into insolvency that I've seen, and squares with my own understanding. What we don't know is how the chain of cause and effect played out over a timeline. How did Alameda lose $10bn? How long has FTX been insolvent? Surely they have been staring down the end of a barrel for a good while?

Re: FTX tapped into customer accounts to fund risky bets, setting up its downfall

#180
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The first $10,000 USD value in your deposit wallets will earn 8% APY (This is what FTX was offering customers) And now we know the accounts weren't actually covered by real money (or "value" as they called it). So when person X was asking FTX for their money back, FTX would send person X+1's money to cover Sounds like a Ponzi to me

It's only a ponzi scheme if you have no underlying business but transferring money between people. Presumably FTX expected that its risky bets would pay off and that return would then fund the interest promised. Otherwise, would you consider corporate debt a ponzi scheme?

[deleted]
Post reply on HN