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No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

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Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#41
post #9

> My position, to be clear, is not a patronizing one that posits people can’t do as they please with their money, but rather that a game of Russian roulette wouldn’t be so thrilling if you found out it was a full clip. Might I suggest to the author posting some evidence/data that shows retail options traders getting burned? Burned in the sense of having no returns to speak of. Obviously, they're getting burned on bad…

> I could be wrong but wouldn't simple logic dictate that... most people stop doing something that loses them money? Have you ever been to a casino? Everyone knows that the house always wins in the aggregate , but everyone hopes that they're one of the lucky individuals who will beat the odds and win as an individual . I would guess, in the case of options trading, that it's not the same people being burned over and…

> Have you ever been to a casino?

Some people view it as a form of entertainment, and most people view entertainment as something that is ok to pay money for. Keep it within your budget, and have fun. The exact same could be said for options trading.

I totally agree, btw, that you aren't likely to get rich options trading. But it certain can be a very fun way to test your skills at analysis and predictions.

Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#43

People said the same thing with crypto way back. The truth is sometimes people are able to make money on something. Sometimes their returns are going to be eye watering. But you should know going in that finance is a game for sharks. If your skill is in mathematics, did you go to the best one of the best universities for it? If not, think long and hard about what type of angle you have that others haven't found. Ther…

Honestly the biggest assets you can have is

1) be willing to read a bunch of boring shit and make sense out of it. If you can read an sec filing and understand it and are willing to do so youre automatically in the top like 1% of retail. Most people are trading on social media tips and other bullshit like that. If you can figure out how to find and understand real no-bullshit information you're well on your way

2) having a small bank roll. Say under a few million. You now are able to take significant (significant as in, a significant portion of your net worth) positions in ultra small cap companies. Many Institutional traders cannot do this without legal implications they'd rather avoid and so you are competing with a much smaller pool of people, and those people are necessarily less advantaged (in terms of information and access to tools/resources) compared to you.

Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#44
post #4

> My position, to be clear, is not a patronizing one that posits people can’t do as they please with their money, but rather that a game of Russian roulette wouldn’t be so thrilling if you found out it was a full clip. Might I suggest to the author posting some evidence/data that shows retail options traders getting burned? Burned in the sense of having no returns to speak of. Obviously, they're getting burned on bad…

> I could be wrong but wouldn't simple logic dictate that... most people stop doing something that loses them money? Humans aren't meat-based Turing machines, they're living beings with emotions and impulses. Why do you think gambling addictions are a thing? Or drug addictions? Or any bad habit that we know is bad, but still do it because self-control is difficult?

> they're living beings with emotions and impulses.

Isn't that all the more reason they should stop after they experience the emotions of their first loss?

If all they experienced were negative emotions + losses, they'd stop sooner/retail options trading wouldn't be "such an epidemic".

Therefore, something I feel the article author slightly missed discussing, they win sometimes.

That's the data I'm interested in.

How often does a retail investor, irregardless of predatory Wall Street + high commissions + fees + whatever, come out ahead on an options trade? Once a week? Once a month? Once a year?

If they win 50% of the time and lose 50% of the time, maybe it's not that evil?

Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#46

You're probably not going to get instantly rich doing any kind of options trading. The story of an average guy who randomly makes a big bet, times the market perfectly, and quickly turns a few thousand dollars into a few million happens once in a while, but is incredibly rare. That said, some kind of options trading can be less risky than just holding stock because you can do things like collecting premiums until you…

"There are low risk strategies like the wheel that basically guarantee you income for doing nothing but being patient."

I haven't found any. And every time an option trader tells me about their "low risk" strategy I see a disaster waiting to happen. The "low risk strategies" of option trading are usually strategies where you make a bet that will give you a low income if things go about the way they have been going about for the past couple of years, and massive disastrous losses if a very unlikely seeming market event happens.

The problem is that the market loves serving up unlikely and impossible seeming events. So really what you think is a low risk income strategy is actually you providing insurance to someone against an unlikely but an entirely possible event without you pricing in the risk of the event in your insurance fees. Because you have managed to convince yourself the event will not happen.

For example, a couple of years ago people were so used to low interest rates that they kind of started believing that interest rates would be low forever. And they came up with all kinds of options and derivative strategies which seemed to generate free money but in reality were bets that interest rates would stay low, or would not breach a certain impossibly high seeming level. Well interest rates went up and in some places (for example, the UK) they hit levels many people thought impossible. And boy were there blow - ups.

More specifically, to your point, "the wheel" strategy is basically a bet against volatility. It will work if the volatility of the primary market is lower than the implied volatility priced by the options market. If not, it will not work and you will lose money. Oh, and if there is one high volatility event, bad enough to wipe you out ... well then you are wiped out. Even if the average volatility was in your favor. So, no, the wheel is not a safe strategy.

If you think you can predict volatility go ahead. But some of the highest paid traders try to do that and get it wrong, so, good luck. But do not fool yourself that you are being safe.

Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#47

> My position, to be clear, is not a patronizing one that posits people can’t do as they please with their money, but rather that a game of Russian roulette wouldn’t be so thrilling if you found out it was a full clip. Might I suggest to the author posting some evidence/data that shows retail options traders getting burned? Burned in the sense of having no returns to speak of. Obviously, they're getting burned on bad…

It's the same reason slot machines, lotto and scratch offs are popular despite their extremely low odds of winning. The dream of the big winner invokes something in us, especially those most susceptible to gambling addictions.

Odds of winning Powerball: one in 292.2 million

Odds of guessing SPY direction right through calls/puts right and getting 30% return: going to guess not that bad

I'm curious what the odds of making a profitable options play are. It's got to be less than 50-50 because of the time decay.

Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#48
post #24

You're probably not going to get instantly rich doing any kind of options trading. The story of an average guy who randomly makes a big bet, times the market perfectly, and quickly turns a few thousand dollars into a few million happens once in a while, but is incredibly rare. That said, some kind of options trading can be less risky than just holding stock because you can do things like collecting premiums until you…

> There are low risk strategies […] that basically guarantee you income for doing nothing Listen to yourself.

What is your issue with my comment? What I said is true.

You can essentially guarantee yourself an income. The risk comes from anytime you're holding stock and the stock value decreases, but you can sell calls on that and earn an income on that until a company goes out of business. This type of wheel strategy is inherently less risky than merely buying stock. There's obviously a lot of nuance to even simple options trading and I don't want to write out 100 paragraphs for some casual comment.

Re: No, You Aren’t Going to Get Rich by Options Trading

#50

Frankly, just reading the headline, I disagree. First of all, yes in a broad sense most people are gonna get fucked trading options if you don't know what they're doing. I know what I'm doing and my strategy is exclusively long equities. But you can absolutely make metric fuckloads of money trading options and there are some trades out there that ain't that hard to figure out. For example, you can print money on a re…

Double digit percentage returns every two months you say?

Why with a starting balance of $10,000 that would be (at the very lowest end of that range) over $1.25 billion dollars after 20 years.

If you don’t mind me asking, what was the offer that tempted you to give that up?

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