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Trolls (2008)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Trolls (2008)

#221

Post by eldude »

scott_s wrote: post #118
interlagos wrote: post #91

I've been hellbanned here on HN on at least three different IP addresses and accounts...that I am aware of. Probably more. In each case nothing I'd ever said would be considered trolling by any rational observer. Here on HN, however, as with most communities where you start to recognize the regulars (tptacek, raganwald, etc), "trolling" is redefined to simply mean "going against the grain". There was one discussion t…

Can you point to the actual posts? Every time I've seen a hellbanned account, I have agreed with the decision. In the interest of full disclosure, my suspicion is that the way you expressed these opinions ran counter to the kind of discussion people want to see on HN. I may be wrong, of course, which is why I'd like to see the actual posts.

> Every time I've seen a hellbanned account, I have agreed with the decision.

I'd be curious to get your opinion on my (just discovered) ban: http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=3354475

Re: Trolls (2008)

#222

Post by jamesaguilar »

zedshaw wrote: post #179

I normally find that, unless an essay is about mathematics, if it is based on a binary argument then it's just false because it's too simplistic to be based in reality. In this case saying there's only "trolls" and "super awesome people!" is childish. There's a much more interesting spectrum of human behavior online that doesn't fit into these convenient categories. To then say there's only two types of "trolls" is a…

It's easier to talk about modes than distributions. The way I read it, that's what PG is doing here.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#223

Post by tomkarlo »

mirkules wrote: post #176
nirvana wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had 3.5k karma before beginning this experiment and you're a cofounder of a YC funded company! You're already part of the "in" group. The first comment prior to this one on your comments feed starts of with: "Your entire comment is bullshit and it pisses me off. You've never worked at Zynga, so to purport that you know exactly what it's like to work there is bullshit. Your comment reflects exactly what Silicon Va…

"I'm actually worried that disagreeing with you will result in me getting hellbanned" Why do people worry about getting banned? It's just a screen name, it's not like you can't just make another one. Even if it's based on IP address, hacker news should be full of people that know how to get around that. Just sayin' - if you've got something smart, constructive to say, say it. Who cares about banning if it's what you…

It's not about the difficulty of making a replacement account. It's about the loss of profile / reputation / recognition. The longer a user has been contributing, the more painful losing all of that becomes.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#224

Post by d0mine »

edw519 wrote: post #147

Discussions like this remind me of my favorite scene from "Roadhouse", the best bad movie ever. Discussion forums are kinda like bars and hackers are kinda like coolers... All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One: never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two: take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three: be nice. Come on. If somebody get…

The monolog from "Roadhouse" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojPVOhHhwnk#t=2m

Re: Trolls (2008)

#225

Post by teej »

lookhard wrote: post #213
teej wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, my "foundership" of a YC company wasn't publicly knowledge until 4 weeks ago. My last comment isn't my greatest accomplishment. I'd hope that my behavior would be looked at in whole, instead of cherrypicked. That being said, I was characterizing the general feeling of HN as a whole. Of the 100k+ readership of HN, very few are actual Zynga employees. So in that light, I defend my comment. There is a large…

"Don't criticize Zynga because you don't have any actual real-life experience with what it's like! And don't criticize me and my comments with actual real-life experience of my comments! You're just being spoonfed the message that whale-hunting "social" "games" aren't actually good for you!"

It's not like that. I want people to make a reasoned opinion based on the big picture, not just on what Mike Arrington says. There are plenty of reasons to hate Zynga. The reasons TechCrunch and WSJ feed you are crappy reasons.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#226

Post by tshtf »

tptacek wrote: post #197
tokenadult wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll disagree with you in part while agreeing in part. I invite onlookers to apply the rubric from pg's essay "How to Disagree" http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html to rate how well I do in disagreeing here. You write, Here on HN, however, as with most communities where you start to recognize the regulars (tptacek, raganwald, etc), "trolling" is redefined to simply mean "going against the grain." I disagree with this,…

There is zero chance yelling at or about me on HN is going to get you hellbanned. There's a bigger chance I'll get hellbanned. This is one of the dumber meta-threads HN has had. Not so much your comment in particular as the whole thing.

You won't be shitbanned, tptacek. Someone with 100 karma who makes a contrary post for a YC company will.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#227

Post by ericd »

eldude wrote: post #200
interlagos wrote: post #91

I've been hellbanned here on HN on at least three different IP addresses and accounts...that I am aware of. Probably more. In each case nothing I'd ever said would be considered trolling by any rational observer. Here on HN, however, as with most communities where you start to recognize the regulars (tptacek, raganwald, etc), "trolling" is redefined to simply mean "going against the grain". There was one discussion t…

I'm absolutely shocked and disgusted to be be reading this discussion regarding being "hellbanned" only to discover that my account in fact has been hellbanned for the past 1.5 yrs without even knowing it! http://news.ycombinator.org/threads?id=CrabDude * enable showdead in your profile to read my comments As you can see from my comments and contributions, most are extremely well reasoned and often entirely unique an…

That comment looks a LOT like spam. Hellbanning is necessary, because if a spammer realizes they've been banned overtly, they'll just create a new account and keep on spamming. You do have a lot of legitimately good comments in that list, though.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#228

Post by eldude »

ericd wrote: post #227
eldude wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm absolutely shocked and disgusted to be be reading this discussion regarding being "hellbanned" only to discover that my account in fact has been hellbanned for the past 1.5 yrs without even knowing it! http://news.ycombinator.org/threads?id=CrabDude * enable showdead in your profile to read my comments As you can see from my comments and contributions, most are extremely well reasoned and often entirely unique an…

That comment looks a LOT like spam. Hellbanning is necessary, because if a spammer realizes they've been banned overtly, they'll just create a new account and keep on spamming. You do have a lot of legitimately good comments in that list, though.

While I may even agree with you, the unfortunate fact is that it is not in fact spam and violates no rules or guidelines and suffers only from being overly enthusiastic in a positive and friendly manner. In truth, it is not even "empty" in that it provides an important link to the voting page.

At best this is an example of incompetence in the form of a poorly written spam detection algorithm, at worst it represents an admin's lazy disregard for the effects of "hellbanning" on a sincere community.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#229

Post by rjurney »

Hacker News lacks a feature that would 'close entire thread,' and so the top troll comment is disproportionately rewarded with attention.

You could fix this with a simple feature.

Re: Trolls (2008)

#230

Post by gridspy »

KeithMajhor wrote: post #190
edw519 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes we hackers work too hard to make things more complicated than they need to be. I was referring to the hackers who use the forum, not the ones who run it. Sorry for the confusion. It really is much easier and more beneficial for everyone to just be nice . Why work harder to achieve less? A few strategies that have made it easier for me to "be nice": 1. Avoid long back and forth threads. Say what you have to…

"1. Avoid long back and forth threads. Say what you have to say and get back to work." If everyone followed all those rules I think this one would be detrimental. Seeing you smarter-than-me people go back and forth about stuff I'm right on the verge of understanding is pretty cool.

About 5-10% of back and forth threads are useful to read. As you point out, these are usually civil debates about the merits of particular approaches.

I think the point is: as soon as it gets personal, get back to work.

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