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My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

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Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#181

Post by remarkEon »

shkkmo wrote: post #172
remarkEon wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After finishing Gordon's essay, the jagged and at times uneven feel of DOOM Eternal seems to make a lot more sense now. This circular creative process (give me the music so we can design the level ... no, you give me the level design so I can write the music) seems to explain what felt so wrong about DOOM Eternal, this "fantasy platform puzzle" idea that Id was driving toward. I feel the same way about pre-ordering A…

Really? KSP2 is not being made by Squad. Squad got bought by Take-Two and Take-Two is having a different studio build the game... or was until they cancelled the contract and poached most that studio's talent. This is a project that seems like it has a high likelihood of failing to capture what made the original one great. I'd wait to see some demos and lets-plays before putting your money down

Whoa … perhaps I’ve been living in a cave, but I was not aware of all of this. When did this happen?

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#182

Post by aidenn0 »

JohnBooty wrote: post #80
brightball wrote: post #75

The most shocking thing about this situation to me is that he didn't get an attorney involved after 2 months without pay. 2 months is generous.

It's easy to say, and important to do, but also hard to do. These relationships always have a hugely asymmetrical power balance. As a contractor your reputation is so critical and the games industry is a small place. And there are far more artists than jobs.

Contracts are in actuality tend to be based on trust. The contract probably said the payment was due when tracks were approved. If iD drags their feet on approving the tracks, then Mick is in trouble.

If the contract were instead structured payment on delivery, then iD is in trouble if Mick delivers substandard work.

Even if Marty's side of the story were 100% true (which seems doubtful), throwing a hissy-fit on Reddit basically stating "I hired a terrible person to do the music so don't blame me" is a bad look.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#183

Post by mywittyname »

brightball wrote: post #102
JohnBooty wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to say, and important to do, but also hard to do. These relationships always have a hugely asymmetrical power balance. As a contractor your reputation is so critical and the games industry is a small place. And there are far more artists than jobs.

True. Touched on this in my other comment too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33535123 Reading through this particular situation though, he was in a unique position to negotiate due to all of management bungles. 1. Original soundtrack author. 2. Conference announcement that he would be producing the sound track as presales exploded. There were others as well. I'm a very patient person, but one thing I've learne…

An announcement on Twitter that he's not under contract to do an OST would have been amusing.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#184

Post by tpxl »

brightball wrote: post #91
dspillett wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Horror stories like this are the main reason I only ever bill by the hour and invoice biweekly. This sort of thing is why I've always kept a salaried position. I could make more, perhaps have more varied & interesting work, and maybe gain other flexibility, if I switched to contracting, but few people extolling these benefits to me ever mention the flip side when things aren't perfect – I'm more than happy to make…

> This probably marks me as someone unsuited for contract work, or too difficult to work with as a contractor, ete, and that is fine by me! This actually makes you an ideal contractor, you just have to know how to do this tactfully. The real issue with this situation is working as a contractor on a single project. At the point you're working for one client, full time, as a contractor...you're an employee. If you've g…

> The real issue with this situation is working as a contractor on a single project. At the point you're working for one client, full time, as a contractor...you're an employee.

I disagree. I currently work as a contractor for one company more or less fully time. Because I'm a contractor, not an employee, I get to choose my hardware and OS, my own hours, I can take vacation when I want and most importantly, the employer can't force me to work in office.

Contract renewal is coming up soon, my rate is going up, and if they don't agree to it I'll just leave (if anyone needs a senior Java dev, email in bio :)).

> If you've got no other clients, you have no ability to negotiate with the simple statement

You don't need to negotiate, you need to assert you wont do free work and then don't do it.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#186

Post by mywittyname »

nvarsj wrote: post #29
Karliss wrote: post #15

Is it known why this response comes out now, 2-3 years after the “DOOM Eternal OST Open Letter” to which it responds? Waiting until any related NDAs time out?

Seems obvious to me. Making a public statement is always going to be the option of last resort for a professional. Seems like Mick did everything he could and finally did this as his last ditch attempt to at least rescue his reputation.

I'm surprised that he can't issue a DCMA takedown of Doom Eternal.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#187

Post by busterarm »

gausswho wrote: post #128
meanmrmustard92 wrote: post #106

Marty came across as a slimy prick in the (otherwise excellent) Noclip documentary about the making of Doom (2016). Turns out the real-life version is much worse.

I remember bouncing off DOOM Eternal after a couple hours because all its clever new mechanics were oddly anti-fun and puzzly resource management. Like the creators didn't know what made the predecessor special. I was confused and stopped playing a couple hours in. So I watched the Noclip hoping to understand the design choices better. Marty was disgustingly smug and assured about it all, coming across like a victim…

It's like you're in my head. I had this exact same experience as you did, word for word.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#188

Post by busterarm »

brightball wrote: post #75

The most shocking thing about this situation to me is that he didn't get an attorney involved after 2 months without pay. 2 months is generous.

In creative industries it's incredibly common not to get paid for 6 months or more.

I remember a certain animation studio based out of NYC that worked on an entire animated series for 9 months after only getting paid for the first episode and then their client had a meeting with them and said "Jesus told me not to do this project". That was the end of the project and the studio. Nobody got paid. They were already constantly 6 months behind paying their animators before taking on that job...

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#189

Post by tibbon »

fleddr wrote: post #178

This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting screwed over 30 times in a row he still was hopeful for a reasonable ending. I express that as a compliment, even if in the real world it works against you. It's not the main topic, but I like to call out attention to this: "incidences of online abuse escalated at an alarming rate as Marty’s Redd…

I also really wonder WTF is wrong with people. Even children should know to not harass someone for any reason, let alone that perhaps that person had conflict while working on a game they enjoy.

I cannot imagine ever going after someone like that, under any circumstance.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#190

Post by shkkmo »

remarkEon wrote: post #181
shkkmo wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? KSP2 is not being made by Squad. Squad got bought by Take-Two and Take-Two is having a different studio build the game... or was until they cancelled the contract and poached most that studio's talent. This is a project that seems like it has a high likelihood of failing to capture what made the original one great. I'd wait to see some demos and lets-plays before putting your money down

Whoa … perhaps I’ve been living in a cave, but I was not aware of all of this. When did this happen?

Take-Two bought Squad in 2017. Here's a couple of article that cover some of the key events.

https://screenrant.com/kerbal-space-program-2-delay-2022-sta...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/kerbal-sp...

https://www.eurogamer.net/after-more-than-a-decade-developme...

It looks like Squad did get re-involved in KSP2 once they closed out development of KSP with v1.12

I'm not saying people shouldn't check out KSP2 and I have high hopes it will be a worthy sequel. It just isn't the sequel I would call out as a specific example of a safe one to pre-order.

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