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App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

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Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#151

Post by amelius »

endisneigh wrote: post #150
amelius wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way. "Alterna…

What do you mean in theory? You can buy a Pinephone today. If your government isn’t making web sites it seems like you should take that up with them.

What you are proposing is entirely unrealistic. That's what I mean by "in theory".

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#152

Post by simonh »

amelius wrote: post #143
coldtea wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line is blurry with smartphones, as all kinds of "smart" functionality IS a service, and depends on contacting the vendor. > Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts. Not that nuts. It's intended to be able to blacklist malware and such and retroactively disable it, through notarization (basically, registering apps to Apple and the…

> The line is blurry with smartphones, as all kinds of "smart" functionality IS a service, and depends on contacting the vendor. No, because you can make your phone work with other service providers. The dependence on the original hardware vendor is artificial. > It's intended to be able to blacklist malware Choice of blacklists, content filters etc. is also orthogonal to the vendor.

And if you want a phone that works that way, they do exist. Personally I'm happy to offload most of that to one service provider, so I'm happy to use an iPhone. If that changes, I'll look elsewhere. Your mileage may vary.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#153

Post by krono »

cmeacham98 wrote: post #109
cmeacham98 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'll take that as you can't demonstrate it? Interestingly, I started up an Nginx server and piped the logs to /dev/null and it worked just fine!! Wow, turns out those logs weren't necessary at all. And by your standard, where tracking that isn't necessary for the website to function is unethical, that makes every single person running Nginx in its default configuration bad and participating in unethical tracking o…

Because it doesn't seem like I'm going to get a response to this, I'll walk down the rest of the logic for completeness's sake. I think we can both agree that "all unnecessary tracking is unethical" doesn't make sense and leads to insane conclusions like "all Nginx users with IP addresses in their logs are participating in unethical tracking". So we're back to square one, where someone needs to demonstrate this type…

The following is meant as constructive feedback, and I hope you will take it as such even if it happens you disagree:

Your comments here consistently come across as highly adversarial: Assumptions and conclusions are liberally asserted, every sentence only attacks, there is no room for nuance, and attempts to find common ground are either mistaken for a new enemy assault or remain unrecognised entirely.

This makes for an uninviting and frustrating conversation, which is a real shame because you are clearly not a stupid person.

Admittedly my previous comment was not very constructive either. An unfortunate outing of my frustrations at the time.

Again, I post this with genuinely positive intent, and hope that when we next cross paths it might lead to a more constructive and enjoyable talk!

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#154

Post by endisneigh »

amelius wrote: post #151
endisneigh wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean in theory? You can buy a Pinephone today. If your government isn’t making web sites it seems like you should take that up with them.

What you are proposing is entirely unrealistic. That's what I mean by "in theory".

Why is it unrealistic? There are people who function fine without a phone at all.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#155

Post by derwiki »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #71
derwiki wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an iPhone and don’t use Google search (I’m not logged in to any Google services actually, unless Apple Mail loading Gmail counts) so I’m pretty sure Google is not tracking _all_ users’ searches.

Yes, you are right. Additionaly, chinese users are not using google, although they are certainly being tracked. I've added the word "almost" into my comment. So it now reads: >google pays Apple "an estimated $8-12 billion"[0] to be default search and as a result track almost all iPhone users' searches

Appreciate the update!

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#156

Post by willis936 »

roguesherlock wrote: post #120
jeroenhd wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly why I distrust all the apps on my phone and desktop unless I've grabbed them from some reliable open source repository. The disgusting entitlement to stalk me at every step and use me as a lab rat is exactly what's wrong with modern software.

Tbh I don’t see it as a huge problem as long as a. The data is anonymous, and b. they aren’t trying to sell the data. I mean if you choose to use someone’s service, you’d want it to get better. And one of the reasons they get better is by collecting feedback of what’s working, what isn’t. It’s very hard to nail down a good ux without feedback.

Point B requires trust, which users shouldn't give to developers who collect as much analytics as possible. If you can't trust a company to respect a reasonable expectation of privacy then why would you expect them to not profit off of it? It's just all very quiet and down in the Ts & Cs, but that doesn't mean it isn't the logical conclusion if given exposure.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#158

Post by simonh »

amelius wrote: post #149
simondotau wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The merits of your arguments aside, Apple is not obliged to sell you a device that satisfies your personal requirements. Apple most definitely sells you a service, which is a managed computing platform. Alternatives exist. (And if they don’t, that’s not Apple’s problem.)

It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way. "Alterna…

I agree there should be basic standards of service, disclosure, quality and safety that products should have to meet in order to be marketable. Basically, purchasers should be able to have confidence in the products they purchase, so the question is what are the appropriate minimum standards.

Personally analytics don't bother me, I don't think they're a significant privacy issue. The service provider already knows almost everything you do with the service anyway, just as a requirement to provide the service. I don't believe that invasive regulation on the detailed behaviour and functions of a phone by governments is genuinely in the interests of users. I suspect that the detrimental effects would far outweigh the benefits, which would only be useful to a tiny fraction of users anyway.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#159

Post by kmlx »

amelius wrote: post #129
altairprime wrote: post #10

OP misconstrues an iOS tracking dialog to support their complaint: > The strange thing is that Apple introduced strict measures in iOS 14.5 to prevent developers from fingerprinting users. The dialog text in their screenshot reads: > Allow “App” to track your activity across other companies’ apps and sites? Users refusing this permission are not prohibiting tracking by the company that issued the dialog. They are pro…

Whatever Apple is doing, it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again. Otherwise you bought a service, not a product. Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts.

> it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again.

don't connect it to the internet.

Re: App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app to Apple

#160

Post by rplnt »

amelius wrote: post #129
altairprime wrote: post #10

OP misconstrues an iOS tracking dialog to support their complaint: > The strange thing is that Apple introduced strict measures in iOS 14.5 to prevent developers from fingerprinting users. The dialog text in their screenshot reads: > Allow “App” to track your activity across other companies’ apps and sites? Users refusing this permission are not prohibiting tracking by the company that issued the dialog. They are pro…

Whatever Apple is doing, it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again. Otherwise you bought a service, not a product. Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts.

Apple doesn't even allow users to turn off Bluetooth or GPS (easily in a straight-forward way, it prevents you to make it easy). And while some of it is to provide a better experience to you, major reason is to provide service to other Apple customers.
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