Nice little write-up. I think I should take "This is an impractical standard to apply to everyday life" more to heart. In conversation I sometimes find myself adding unnecessary caveats to what I say, sort of similar to his "slept in one time in 2003" example. And he's right, trying to hold yourself to this standard of honesty all the time in real life will make people think you're weird.
On Intellectual Dishonesty
11–20 of 35 posts
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#12Dishonesty is defined here as "1) saying that something that is untrue, and 2) saying it with the intent to mislead the other person.". There's a third part "3) when the person expects you to be truthful". When you make a statement with the intent to mislead somebody but the person is fully aware that he is being mislead, there is no dishonesty. Magicians and illusionists deceive people who expect to be deceived, so…
I disagree with your assessment of CEOs and politicians. For me, at least, it's because I've seen them lie so many times over so long that I no longer really trust what they say. I expected & would like to expect they tell the truth. In other words, I still "expect" honest communication from CEOs and politicians and am frustrated by their lying.
I agree. We tend to accept lies from politicians because they "always" lie and we don't expect otherwise. But understanding that this is the practical reality at the moment doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We should push back and expect more.
Every time someone repeats the lie that lying politicians are expected and accepted, they're helping make the lie true. Stop it.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#13When I lie I must think about the other guy, the person I am trying to deceive, in one of two ways: (1) he is an aggressor and I must lie to defend myself, (2) he is a good person but I'm doing him an important favour. Thus for example: (1) I deceive during wartime by feeding false information to enemy spies or painting wooden boxes to look like tanks, (2) I lie to a family member in order to protect his feelings. Th…
> Or if they do exist, they are strictly unconscious. Everyone sees himself as a good guy or a victim.
Generally, I agree with your thrust, but not so strongly as you have phrased it. Self-acknowledged "bad guys" do exist.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#14Feynman: I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the laymen when you're talking as a scientist. . . . I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, [an integrity] that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibi…
And from the HN article "intellectual honesty requires bending-over-backwards to provide any evidence that you might be wrong." The article is so close to a direct Feynman quote that it makes me wonder if the author was subconsciously plagiarizing Feynman. Normally, I wouldn't mind (subconscious plagiarism is everywhere). But in an article about intellectual honesty I would expect the author to "bend over backwards"…
Yep, I read it and immediately felt that I had read that same phrase somewhere else.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#15A widely linked reprint of Richard Feynman's "Cargo Cult Science" commencement address at Caltech:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
The original Caltech posting of the speech text, in .PDF format:
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.pdf
"I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you are maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen."
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#16Dishonesty is defined here as "1) saying that something that is untrue, and 2) saying it with the intent to mislead the other person.". There's a third part "3) when the person expects you to be truthful". When you make a statement with the intent to mislead somebody but the person is fully aware that he is being mislead, there is no dishonesty. Magicians and illusionists deceive people who expect to be deceived, so…
I disagree with your assessment of CEOs and politicians. For me, at least, it's because I've seen them lie so many times over so long that I no longer really trust what they say. I expected & would like to expect they tell the truth. In other words, I still "expect" honest communication from CEOs and politicians and am frustrated by their lying.
The difference being that the magician deceives you for your own benefit and at your request. Though the CEO and politician deceive you (or lie with the intent to deceive), you didn't ask them to.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree with your assessment of CEOs and politicians. For me, at least, it's because I've seen them lie so many times over so long that I no longer really trust what they say. I expected & would like to expect they tell the truth. In other words, I still "expect" honest communication from CEOs and politicians and am frustrated by their lying.
I agree. We tend to accept lies from politicians because they "always" lie and we don't expect otherwise. But understanding that this is the practical reality at the moment doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We should push back and expect more. Every time someone repeats the lie that lying politicians are expected and accepted, they're helping make the lie true. Stop it.
I completely disagree. For every voter with an IQ of 120 we have a voter with an IQ of 80. For every voter with an IQ of 130 we have a voter with an IQ of 70. There is a huge part of the population that cannot be persuaded with argument or reason. But the problem isn't just that the majority is uneducated or unintelligent. It's also about the team dynamics that are at play here. The moment you answer a question "incorrectly", you become the enemy in the eye of the voter: somebody from the other team. It betrays weakness.
This is why so many politicians are completely unable to concede a single point, even when it's completely obvious they're wrong, even when conceding the point wouldn't damage the strength of their argument. The rules political rhetoric are simple: disagree with all arguments and facts of those you oppose and never ever ever admit you're wrong. The moment you say you made a mistake your opponents will mercilessly use it against you and your supporters will perceive you as weak.
The whole political game is not fact based and never has been, in no country at no point in history. It's about teams. And people want their team to WIN, facts be damned.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. We tend to accept lies from politicians because they "always" lie and we don't expect otherwise. But understanding that this is the practical reality at the moment doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We should push back and expect more. Every time someone repeats the lie that lying politicians are expected and accepted, they're helping make the lie true. Stop it.
I completely disagree. For every voter with an IQ of 120 we have a voter with an IQ of 80. For every voter with an IQ of 130 we have a voter with an IQ of 70. There is a huge part of the population that cannot be persuaded with argument or reason. But the problem isn't just that the majority is uneducated or unintelligent. It's also about the team dynamics that are at play here. The moment you answer a question "inco…
Perhaps there are legitimate reasons for lying (we can save that for a separate thread). But it's still lying.
I would argue that lying has nothing to do with expectations. Magicians and comedians lie, but we are okay with it and we (hopefully) don't believe those statements. We just get our chuckles and forget about them.
Many (not all) people expect politicians and other leaders to lie. And like you said, maybe we need them to lie, maybe the world is better for it. And I am sure there are plenty of politically correct terms to use for those instances instead of lying.
But if the statement is false, then it is false. It doesn't matter how the recipient of the message interprets it, that's their problem.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. We tend to accept lies from politicians because they "always" lie and we don't expect otherwise. But understanding that this is the practical reality at the moment doesn't mean it should be acceptable. We should push back and expect more. Every time someone repeats the lie that lying politicians are expected and accepted, they're helping make the lie true. Stop it.
I completely disagree. For every voter with an IQ of 120 we have a voter with an IQ of 80. For every voter with an IQ of 130 we have a voter with an IQ of 70. There is a huge part of the population that cannot be persuaded with argument or reason. But the problem isn't just that the majority is uneducated or unintelligent. It's also about the team dynamics that are at play here. The moment you answer a question "inco…
It sounds like you're saying honesty in government is incompatible with democracy. That sounds like a problem with democracy to me.
Re: On Intellectual Dishonesty
#20Advertising and marketing fails on all counts. "Truth in advertising" is the biggest lie of all.
I guess lying is bad for science. It's cool if you're just trying to make money.
Seriously, advertising that isn't lying is called "information". And very very few advertisers stick to simply informing people about their product and its verified functions.
It's always "This is so cool! Everybody is using it! Impress your friends! Pick up chicks! It won't hurt.". Lies, all.
Keep the downvotes coming.