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Just don’t

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Re: Just don’t

#361

Post by scubbo »

lephty wrote: post #186
yboris wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the reminder -- it does feel like people can be in (at least) two different modes -- with a desire to vent and be heard, or inquiring about a solution. Yet it is not obvious which since the two can sound so similar. If someone is grieving it's probably time to just listen, but when someone is stuck with a social problem they may be rubber ducking with you rather than considering you to be a good approxi…

"Rubber ducking." As in speaking to your rubber duck with no expectation of a response? First time seeing this usage. Thanks.

Congratulations, you are one of today's Lucky Ten Thousand! https://xkcd.com/1053/

Re: Just don’t

#362

Post by scubbo »

thegrimmest wrote: post #347
ceras wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, does this apply to romantic partners too? Personally, I'd be sad if my wife didn't share things troubling her that she didn't need my help solving. I like knowing how she's feeling about things. But at work, I understand this mindset. Though personally, I still actually don't mind hearing people complain. And since I'm a manager, complaints are a very useful signal for me: even if I'm just in listening-mode,…

Of course I don't callously dismiss my romantic partner when she complains. We both also recognize that complaining is fundamentally indulgent, pointless, and selfish, and strive to develop better coping mechanisms. Even when suffering greatly, I am loathe to complain. When I do complain, I am sure to apologize. As a leader, actionable complaints (read: criticisms) are indeed a very useful signal, and I try my best t…

Do you always feel a need to apologize when indulging in something that makes you feel better? Why is it that you feel you're not entitled to do something selfish that makes you feel better and doesn't hurt anyone else?

Re: Just don’t

#363

Post by deadbunny »

roxymusic1973 wrote: post #73
MajimasEyepatch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or to an overweight person: "you know you'd be a lot healthier if you just lost weight" or "why don't you get a gym membership" or "it's just calories in minus calories out, bro"? Gee, thanks, you're the first person ever to tell me that I should lose weight and it's just a matter of diet and exercise, like every fat person on the planet doesn't already know. It's like saying to a smoker, "You know that's bad for you…

It can be helpful to tell smokers that.

As a smoker, just no.

Re: Just don’t

#364

Post by incanus77 »

enneff wrote: post #342
incanus77 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar: I like “maybe a dumb question, but tell me about X”. I am never shy about being possibly redundant or asking “dumb” questions.

I try not to frame things as “dumb questions” because I find that junior devs can feel a lot of their questions are “dumb” but really they’re often very good questions and (even if you lead by example) they can be hesitant to ask them. I think it’s generally a good assumption that if someone has a question in mind then it’s worth exploring, so there are no dumb questions.

Fair point. I think as a senior dev (and someone in their mid-40s with a longish career) I want to make a point that I still ask the type of question. But a good thing to be sensitive to.

Re: Just don’t

#365

Post by switchbak »

titzer wrote: post #348
seabriez wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, agree here. People are pending over backwards parsing language, you can take any word and make the same argument. Even phrases like "consider", "other", "alternative" can be interpreted in wildly different ways, essentially making conversation much more muted and passive agressive. Meanwhile the core issue is not discussed, which is; maybe we shouldnt inject mental health into words that are meaningless in that…

I used to know someone who would constantly use phrases like "I'm not sure we really understand what is going on here..." but it took me many iterations to decode that in fact, they meant "I'm not sure you really understand what is going on here..." With that decoder ring whole conversations turned decidedly more uncomfortable as it was clear this person was not actually working together for mutual understanding or t…

Do you know that's what they were thinking though? Lots of mistrust can build up when we don't regularly check our assumptions.

Re: Just don’t

#366

Post by _carbyau_ »

enneff wrote: post #344
vasco wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do though? Just stand there quietly nodding? When I try to do this I end up basically saying "that sucks", "hmm hmm", "yeah", etc which is very frustrating to me as I'd hate someone doing that to me. Or worse, sometimes I get the feeling that those "that need a listener" actually want mindless agreement with whatever the situation was or I feel like I'll be reinforcing insecurities. Let's say someone is t…

There’s a fantastic book and tv series by a research psychologist Brene Brown where she talks a lot about how to be on the listening end of these kinds of conversations. Often in these situations the other party just wants to have their emotions validated by someone they trust. Just being there to acknowledge their feelings and see their pain is enough (and trying to do more can sometimes make things worse). I highly…

I agree and would like to emphasize the word "validation".

It is less about "solving a problem" and more about "figuring out how to feel about the problem".

Validation can help reduce emotional turmoil, distill it into a calmer set of feelings.

The feelings may still be strong. The situation may still suck.

But at least you can be sure of how much it sucks - because someone else you respect, see's it as valid too.

Re: Just don’t

#367

Post by enneff »

incanus77 wrote: post #364
enneff wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try not to frame things as “dumb questions” because I find that junior devs can feel a lot of their questions are “dumb” but really they’re often very good questions and (even if you lead by example) they can be hesitant to ask them. I think it’s generally a good assumption that if someone has a question in mind then it’s worth exploring, so there are no dumb questions.

Fair point. I think as a senior dev (and someone in their mid-40s with a longish career) I want to make a point that I still ask the type of question. But a good thing to be sensitive to.

Yeah absolutely and some of the most senior engineers I have worked with often made a point of asking seemingly obvious questions, to great effect. I think it’s a wonderful thing to demonstrate and I do the same.

Re: Just don’t

#368

Post by redhale »

adenozine wrote: post #360

Alternatively, if you’re not fit for work, then don’t be at work? I mean, at what point is it over the line to be useless at a job you’ve agreed to do, and that you demonstrated competence for and interviewed for? Many times I’ve said things like “just restart the cronjob for this” or “just tag this issue to so-and-so if you can’t get it, they wrote the original” etc. I’m all for taking care of yourself, but if you c…

Just don't feel alienated by articles like these.

Re: Just don’t

#369

Post by eyelidlessness »

adenozine wrote: post #360

Alternatively, if you’re not fit for work, then don’t be at work? I mean, at what point is it over the line to be useless at a job you’ve agreed to do, and that you demonstrated competence for and interviewed for? Many times I’ve said things like “just restart the cronjob for this” or “just tag this issue to so-and-so if you can’t get it, they wrote the original” etc. I’m all for taking care of yourself, but if you c…

I’m not myself sensitive to the particular word “just”, but I do understand why many people find it counterproductive in many kinds of usage. Your examples are probably among the more benign: in the first, it seems a clear cut resolution; the latter usage is superfluous and has the same meaning without “just”.

But your attitude is exactly what many people find objectionable. People who are fit, but who may be dealing with something more challenging than you understand, don’t benefit from input dismissing the challenge. More than that, dismissive and demanding, commanding or ignorantly prescriptive input can be a mental and often emotional tax that undermines actually facing the challenge at issue.

A lot of times people will do much better at facing their particular challenges if you just let them find their way, or even if you just defer to how they want you to help (if they even do). This really isn’t so much about the word “just” other than its exemplary utility in getting this dynamic wrong.

Re: Just don’t

#370

Post by thegrimmest »

scubbo wrote: post #362
thegrimmest wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I don't callously dismiss my romantic partner when she complains. We both also recognize that complaining is fundamentally indulgent, pointless, and selfish, and strive to develop better coping mechanisms. Even when suffering greatly, I am loathe to complain. When I do complain, I am sure to apologize. As a leader, actionable complaints (read: criticisms) are indeed a very useful signal, and I try my best t…

Do you always feel a need to apologize when indulging in something that makes you feel better? Why is it that you feel you're not entitled to do something selfish that makes you feel better and doesn't hurt anyone else?

> doesn't hurt anyone else

If this is actually true then clearly there's no need to apologize. However if I've selfishly imposed a one-sided conversation on someone else in order to soothe myself, of course it's correct to apologize. Who enjoys participating in a one-sided conversation? Most people tolerate them out of sheer politeness.

The whole idea of good manners is to avoid imposing on other people, be that physically, emotionally, or conversationally.

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